Determing equation of state from thermodynamic coefficients

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the equation of state from given thermodynamic coefficients, specifically the isobaric expansion coefficient and the isothermal compressibility. The coefficients are expressed in terms of temperature, volume, and pressure, with a constant involved. Participants are exploring the implications of these expressions and their consistency.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are attempting to derive the equation of state by integrating the given thermodynamic relationships. There are questions about the validity of the derived expressions for volume and whether the experimental coefficients make sense. Some participants are also exploring the implications of mixed second derivatives.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights and questioning the calculations and assumptions made. There is a recognition of potential inconsistencies in the experimental data, particularly regarding the equality of mixed derivatives. Some guidance has been offered regarding the need to treat volume as a function of temperature and pressure.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of the symmetry of mixed second derivatives in thermodynamics and the implications of the constant 'a' on the derived equations. There is a suggestion that if no suitable value for 'a' exists, it may indicate inconsistencies in the experimental data.

AwesomeTrains
Messages
115
Reaction score
3

Homework Statement


The isobaric expansion coefficient and the isothermal compressibility are given by:
$$\alpha_p = (1/V)(\partial V/\partial T)_p \quad \kappa_T = -(1/V)(\partial V / \partial p)_T$$
Suppose they have experimentally been determined to be: $$ \alpha_p = \frac{1}{T} + \frac{3a}{VT^3} \quad \kappa_T = \frac{1}{p}\left(1+\frac{a}{VT^2}\right)$$ with some constant a. Try to determine the equation of state.

Homework Equations


$$dV(T,p) = \frac{\partial V}{\partial T}dT + \frac{\partial V}{\partial p}dp$$
$$\frac{\partial^2 F}{\partial V^2} = \frac{1}{\kappa_T V}$$ (Not sure if the last one is useful)

The Attempt at a Solution


I calculated the free energy by plugging in ##\kappa_T## and then solving the equation for ##F## giving: ##F(V,p,T) = pV ln(a+T^2V)+\left(\frac{ap}{T^2}\right)ln(a+T^2V)+c_2V+c_1##
Using the first two equations for ##\alpha_p## and ##\kappa_T## I got $$V(T,p)=\frac{-a~ln~p}{(1+ln~p)T^2}+c,\quad V(T)=\frac{-3a}{2T^2(1-ln~T)}+c$$ by integrating over ##T## for ##\alpha_p## and over ##T## for ##\kappa_T##.

But this approach doesn't seem to make much sense since the two equations for V differ.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
I'm a bit curious about the source of this problem. Could you share the source, please?
 
Useful nucleus said:
I'm a bit curious about the source of this problem. Could you share the source, please?

I don't have the source but I attached a screenshot of the problem sheet as it was handed out.

unknown.png
 

Attachments

  • unknown.png
    unknown.png
    60.8 KB · Views: 308
Thank you. I'm a bit confused about how your calculation of F leads to the expressions you wrote for V. But the first relevant equation you wrote is very useful because you can replace ∂V/∂P by -VκT and replace ∂V/∂T by Vα. Now the question in the problem sheet asks about something first before trying to evaluate V(T,P) which is whether these experimentally determined expressions make sense. One needs to recall a condition on the second derivatives of V(T,P) (or any thermodynamic state function)

The second part of the question, evaluating V(T,P) should straightforward integration of the partial differential expression you wrote:

AwesomeTrains said:
$$dV(T,p) = \frac{\partial V}{\partial T}dT + \frac{\partial V}{\partial p}dp$$
 
Useful nucleus said:
Thank you. I'm a bit confused about how your calculation of F leads to the expressions you wrote for V. But the first relevant equation you wrote is very useful because you can replace ∂V/∂P by -VκT and replace ∂V/∂T by Vα. Now the question in the problem sheet asks about something first before trying to evaluate V(T,P) which is whether these experimentally determined expressions make sense. One needs to recall a condition on the second derivatives of V(T,P) (or any thermodynamic state function)

The second part of the question, evaluating V(T,P) should straightforward integration of the partial differential expression you wrote:

My calculation for ##F## didn't really seem to go anywhere, added it to the question just in case it could have been useful.

##dV(T,p) = \frac{\partial V}{\partial T}dT + \frac{\partial V}{\partial p}dp \implies \int \frac{dv}{v} = -\int \kappa_T dp + \int \alpha_p dT \implies## $$ln~V = -\left(1+\frac{a}{VT^2}\right)ln~p + ln~T-\frac{3a}{2VT^2}+c$$ but I can't seem to solve this for V, does this mean that they really don't make sense as you said?
 
You cannot integrate this way, in the presence of V(T,P) in the right hand side. You need to have T,P only in the right hand side.

To check the validity of the expressions you should invoke the symmetry of the mixed second derivatives. Again when you calculate the second derivative make sure that you treat V as a function of T,P.
 
Useful nucleus said:
You cannot integrate this way, in the presence of V(T,P) in the right hand side. You need to have T,P only in the right hand side.

To check the validity of the expressions you should invoke the symmetry of the mixed second derivatives. Again when you calculate the second derivative make sure that you treat V as a function of T,P.

I cannot seem to get the differential fiddled into parts like: ##f(V)dV = g(T)dT + h(p)dp## the best I could do is something like: $$dV+V\left(\frac{dp}{p}-\frac{dT}{T}\right) = \frac{-adp}{T^2}+\frac{3adT}{T^3}$$ or $$\frac{1}{V}\left(dV+\frac{adp}{T^2}-\frac{3adT}{T^3}\right)= \frac{-dp}{p}+\frac{dT}{T}$$

For the second mixed partial derivatives I got: $$\frac{\partial^2 V}{\partial p \partial T} = \frac{\partial \alpha_p V}{\partial p} = 0 + \alpha_p\frac{\partial V}{\partial p} = -\alpha_p V\kappa_T$$ and $$ \frac{\partial^2 V}{\partial T \partial p} = -\frac{\partial V \kappa_T}{\partial T} = -V\alpha_p\kappa_T + \frac{2a}{pT^3} $$

which means they differ by ##\frac{2a}{pT^3}##.
In the lecture we just always assume they are equal, e.g the order doesn't matter. But does this mean then that there is no equation of state?
 
If there is no value for the constant a that ensures the equality of the two mixed derivative, then it looks to me that there is inconsistency in the experimental data. Note that a = 0, leads to the equation of state of the ideal gas as you can check by integration of dV(T,P).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: AwesomeTrains

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K