Did US Marines commit a massacre?

[arildno]

I am thoroughly disgusted by these actions, but not surprised. It seems to be a hallmark of the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld coalition - it is pure evil!

Ditto, but isn't it the propaganda of political demonization (and dehumanization) of one's enemies that in some sense is ultimately to "blame", i.e, the political brainwash of otherwise upstanding members of the body politic?

Nobody is born to commit acts of pure evil, but ANYONE may easily do so if he has a conviction he's fighting demons, rather than humans..

 

[BobG]

In related news, the Abu Ghraib dog handler is found guilty on two counts of abuse and dereliction. His penalty - 90 days hard labor, and a demotion, but no jail time. His defense - obeying orders from higher ups.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5041946.stm

He got off lighter than the other dog handler involved. The other dog handler got 6 months in jail.

The next trial will be the interesting one. http://www.tiscali.co.uk/news/newsw...my-colonel-charged-in-abu-ghraib-scandal.html) Most (the ones not directly involved in the abuses) accepted the equivalent of a plea bargain to avoid having a court martial conviction on their record.

 

[Kalimaa23]

I think that it is the sad result of a poorly thought out foreign policy. Marines, like most armed forces, are designed for one thing : to operate in a combat situation and to dispatch the enemy forces. Note that this is NOT a good way of behaving in a confusing civilian situation like Iraq. When you deploy military personnel in a situation like this, things like this will happen. Sad but true. This is why military force should be used sparingly, something some US policy makers do not seem to realize.

 

[Art]

The Pentagon says other alleged massacres by US forces are also under investigation. This issue of some US forces murdering unarmed civilians has the potential to be even more damaging to the US image around the world than the Abu Ghraib torture expose.

The US is braced for further criticism of the behaviour of its personnel with military spokesmen announcing that three or four other probes into cases of US troops killing Iraqi citizens are ongoing.

In one of these, prosecutors are expected to charge seven Marines and a Navy corpsman with murder.

The eight men are being held at Camp Pendleton, California, over the killing of a man in Hamandiya on April 26. There are allegations of a subsequent attempt to make the dead man look like an insurgent by placing an AK-47 rifle near his body.

Meanwhile, further details were emerging of another incident in Ishaqi, north of Baghdad in March. US officials said at the time that a militant, two women and a child died when US troops became involved in a firefight after a tip-off that an al-Qaeda supporter was visiting a house in the town.

The BBC has obtained video which appears to contradict this. The footage instead appears to back an Iraqi police report that US troops rounded up and shot 11 people - including four women and five children - in the head.

Mr al-Maliki - whose government is dependent on coalition troops to tackle sectarian feuding among southern Shias and a relentless Sunni-led insurgency in the west - said that reports of such behaviour had become commonplace.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2208320,00.html

In the Ishaqi incident the US military said their investigation into possible wrongdoing by it's forces concluded a few days ago and exonerated the US forces however following the video obtained by the BBC yesterday and the publication of the Iraqi police report http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/14138980.htm on the incident some sources such as the Toronto Star claim the pentagon has now agreed to open a new investigation.

Given the evidence supplied already in the Iraqi police report, including forensics, which was available to the investigators it is incredible that the pentagon investigation cleared the soldiers! It seems the norm is for US military investigators to cover-up attrocities such as this unless and until incontrovertible evidence to the contrary, which they cannot suppress, is produced publically.

My bet on the Haditha massacre is the investigators will try to muddy the waters by claiming they need to exhume the bodies of the victims to reach a conclusion in the hope the victims' families will not allow it as it is against their religion. I suspect they will then use this to get the marines off the hook despite the fact they already have the autopsy reports and photos of the bodies.

 

[Rach3]

I am very worried at how the military investigation into the Ishaqi killings came to the conclusion it did, without resolving its glaring contradiction with videotaped evidence:

Meanwhile, further details were emerging of another incident in Ishaqi, north of Baghdad in March. US officials said at the time that a militant, two women and a child died when US troops became involved in a firefight after a tip-off that an al-Qaeda supporter was visiting a house in the town.

The BBC has obtained video which appears to contradict this. The footage instead appears to back an Iraqi police report that US troops rounded up and shot 11 people - including four women and five children - in the head.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-2208320,00.html

Interview with a relative at Ishaqi:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060603/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_haditha_22;_ylt=AkiXHp.SMBpxGaVhvRQR9N9X6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[Rach3]

Interview with nine-year-old Haditha relative who claims to have witnessed the massacre: (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060603/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_haditha_19;_ylt=Aij.UWUlY.4tI4Wu_jlicNdX6GMA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl )

Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," said Abdul-Hameed, wearing a violet striped shirt and headband as she sat on a couch at a cousin's home, where she is now living. She and her brother Abdul-Rahman were slightly injured during the shootings.

(Haditha is the massacre under active investigation, not the one in which the US investigation contraversially cleared soldiers from blame (Ishaqi). Just want to keep things straight.)

 

[Rach3]

I just caught on to the fact that the US paid the relatives of the Haditha victims last fall. A tasteless gesture, whatever the purpose. Where they trying to buy silence?

...Despite blaming insurgents for the killings, the U.S. military gave the families $2,500 for each person killed in the incident about a month later, except for four brothers, all of fighting age...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060603/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_haditha

Apparently quite a few Iraqis interpret it that way, seems to have been considered insulting. Rightly so, I'd think.

 

[SOS2008]

Since the Bush regime took power it seems there is a cover-up every day. In regard to the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq alone, the list is long. Here in Arizona the cover-up about Tillman's death is still in the news. I think the cover-ups are what make Americans all the more disgusted.

Aside from Bush claiming to welcome dissent, in regard to Haditha he recently said that because we are a "transparent society" this will be thoroughly investigated. I would consider this a major joke if it weren't in relation to brutal loss of life.

 

[LURCH]

I for one trust the US government about as far as Bush could throw Clinton, but I trust the Iraqi sources of this story even less. The video evidence was provided by people who want these events to be seen as massacres by the US millitary.

When I first heard that there was video which contradicts the official story, I thought someone had video of the events themselves. So far, no such video has emerged. until it does, I will find it very hard to believe that a bunch of marines just got ticked off and walked into the nearest house and shot everyone.

I also saw the footage of the interview with the 9-yr-old, and I saw her tell the story more than once. She told the exact same story each time, from beginning to end, word-for-word. It was quite obviously a memorised recitation, and had the appearence of something she had been tought to say. In one case, the interviewer asked some questions, and the story changed just a bit. The girl said she knew it was time to go to school, but she stayed on the floor in her room for just a few moments more, "because the bomb was about to go off".

I'm not saying that these massacres didn't happen, but that they are far from a certainty. Maybe I'm reading too much between the lines here, but it sure looks like most people in this thread have already made up their minds, and I think that is a very dangerous thing to do. Presumtion of guilt seldom leads to the truth.

 

[Gokul43201]

LURCH, every single leak out of the military has made it clear that there are going to be courts-martial handed out at the very least. It's not a certainty yet, but multiple sources seem to be pointing in the same direction. If this too is cleared like the Ishaqi case, there will be a lot of folks (notably Murtha) with pie on their faces, and they're more aware of this than I am.

 

[Astronuc]

U.S. Charges Soldiers with Murder in Iraq Case
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5496931

All Things Considered, June 19, 2006 · Three U.S. soldiers have been charged with premeditated murder after being accused of shooting three detainees north of Baghdad on May 9 and then threatening to kill a fellow soldier if he told the truth about the incident.

The three Iraqi prisoners were killed last month near the volatile town of Balad. The Pentagon said the soldiers face charges including "murder, attempted murder, conspiracy, communicating a threat, and obstructing justice."

The names of those charged have not been released, but they are said to include a sergeant and two soldiers, members of the 101st Airborne Division. A defense official said the three are alleged to have shot and killed three Iraqi detainees on May 9. The soldiers said the detainees were running away and were shot, but investigators say their version is false. Other soldiers have come forward and spoken to the investigators.

The case comes as the U.S. military reviews two other incidents of civilian deaths in Iraq. One took place in Haditha, a city northwest of Baghdad, in which 24 civilians were killed by Marine gunfire. While that investigation is continuing, defense lawyers say they've been told by government officials that murder charges are likely.

The other case involves an Iraqi man killed by a Marine squad in Hamdiniyah, just west of the capital. The suspects in that incident include seven Marines and a Navy medic -- some of whom have confessed. They are all now in pre-trial confinement and charges are expected this week or next.

How will this affect the investigation of the Haditha incident. Such acts undermine the US effort in Iraq and motivate others to seek vengeance.

 

[Skyhunter]

U.S. Charges Soldiers with Murder in Iraq Case
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5496931

How will this affect the investigation of the Haditha incident. Such acts undermine the US effort in Iraq and motivate others to seek vengeance.

Incidents like these are inevitable. We are occupying a country where 8 in 10 of the people don't want us there. It is a hostile environment with no clear mission for the troops to focus on. I fear this is not going to be the last incident.

The sooner we re-deploy over the horizon as Murtha has suggested for the last 6 months the better. Getting the American soldier off the streets of Baghdad and off the minds of the Iraqi's, will go a long way toward easing the tension.

 

[Gokul43201]

More soldiers charged with killing civilians and falsifying reports - this time for the Ramadi incident.

Soldiers charged in new Iraq shooting case

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Two U.S. soldiers have been charged in connection with the shooting death of an unarmed Iraqi civilian, the U.S. military said on Sunday, the latest case to come to light of alleged abuses by American troops.

Specialist Nathan B. Lynn was charged with voluntary manslaughter for the shooting on February 15. He was also charged with obstructing justice, along with Sergeant Milton Ortiz Jr, the military said in a statement.

http://today.reuters.com/news/NewsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-06-25T100229Z_01_COL532879_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-CRIME.xml

 

[edward]

This separate incident involving 7 marines ( not Haditha) is being prosecuted.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/14871442.htm

These young soldiers and Marines are totally angry and frustrated. Not to make excuses, but a lot of guys are on their third tour in Iraq. Plus the $40,000 sign up bonuses are bringing in a lot of young people who are not capable of dealing with the stress put upon them.

We can call them paid killers, but when offered enough money to buy a new Mustang, 18 year olds don't really think beyond the sign up cash.

The blood is really on Bush's hands.

 

[kyleb]

We need better human rights education along with stricter and more frequent psychological testing to help avoid putting our solders in positions where they will commit such atrocities, but that will only happen if we can put people in charge who actually care about avoiding these tragedies.

 

[Gokul43201]

There will always be bad apples (and yes, their number could possibly be diminished by training and selection). But to me, the more inportant question is: "Do we have a system that is designed to root them out?" If not, we are complicit in the rottenness.

As of now the "system" appears to rely rather heavily on what the press is able to expose. The system is being enforced by the last line of defense - the chance that secrecy is not absolute.

 

[loseyourname]

I think that it is the sad result of a poorly thought out foreign policy. Marines, like most armed forces, are designed for one thing : to operate in a combat situation and to dispatch the enemy forces. Note that this is NOT a good way of behaving in a confusing civilian situation like Iraq. When you deploy military personnel in a situation like this, things like this will happen. Sad but true. This is why military force should be used sparingly, something some US policy makers do not seem to realize.

That's a good point that seems to have been ignored. The Marine Corps was not designed or trained to be an occupying force in an ostensible friendly nation. They end up doing the job because there aren't enough Army forces and it's no surprise these things end up happening.

 

[J77]

^^ Is it not also true that US marines aren't trained for a street-to-street type fighting/peace-keeping situation.

Whereas, for example, UK marines (NI) and the UN have loads of experience in these types of situations.

The US guys are trained to kill, not to keep peace. Not that this is a good thing, but it explains why the situation is so ****ed up.

 

[siddharth]

I'm bringing this up, cause if I remember right, there was an official investigation into this incident? Does anyone know if the investigation has published it's report, or if any charges are going to be taken against the marines? What's the current status?

 

[Rach3]

I'm bringing this up, cause if I remember right, there was an official investigation into this incident? Does anyone know if the investigation has published it's report, or if any charges are going to be taken against the marines? What's the current status?

It's a terrible question to ask, but which particular US Marines massacre are you referring to? For example, if it's the one in Haditha -

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=haditha&btnG=Search+News
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20060921-9999-7m21haditha.html

...is still in litigation, death penality is possible. Using google News, you can go back further and examine the timeline of events.

 

[siddharth]

It's a terrible question to ask, but which particular US Marines massacre are you referring to? For example, if it's the one in Haditha -

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=haditha&btnG=Search+News
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/military/20060921-9999-7m21haditha.html

...is still in litigation, death penality is possible. Using google News, you can go back further and examine the timeline of events.

Thanks for the links Rach. I was referring to Haditha.

 

[Astronuc]

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=domesticNews&storyID=2006-10-06T223905Z_01_N06210903_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-MARINES-PLEA.xml&WTmodLoc=Home-C5-domesticNews-3

CAMP PENDLETON, California (Reuters) - A U.S. Navy medic admitted on Friday helping kidnap an Iraqi grandfather and said his patrol leader's anger at the release of a suspected "terrorist" from Baghdad's Abu Ghraib prison prompted the abduction and murder.

Petty Officer Melson Bacos, 21, and the seven Marines he accompanied on an April patrol were charged with kidnapping Hashim Ibrahim Awad, 52, from his home, killing him and placing an AK-47 assault rifle, spent bullets and a shovel next to his body to suggest he was trying to plant a roadside bomb.

"I wanted to be part of the team. I wanted to be loyal," Bacos said solemnly of his involvement. "Now I feel as though my honor is gone and I have let down others who have looked up to me. I apologize to our country.

"I also ask forgiveness from the Iraqi family we have done this to."

The killing in the town of Hamdania was one in a series of incidents in which the conduct of American troops in Iraq have damaged the country's image worldwide.

Shedding new light on the death, Bacos told military judge Col. Steven Folsom that squad leader Sgt. Lawrence Hutchins III had devised the plan to kill a different Iraqi who was "a known high-value individual whom he had detained who was later released from Abu Ghraib."

"He was just mad that they kept letting him go when he was a known terrorist, sir," Bacos said. "He was detained and released three times, sir."

Yet the squad did not find their intended target, Saleh Gowad, and instead seized Awad next door, Bacos said.

So the Marines were just pissed off and not under fire, and therefore they just found some guy, dragged him out of his home and killed him!

Navy Medic Describes Civilian's Death in Iraq
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6211231

All Things Considered, October 6, 2006 · At Camp Pendleton in California, a Navy corpsman agrees to testify in general courts-martial against seven U.S. Marines who are accused of murdering an Iraqi man. Petty Officer Melson Bacos has accepted a plea agreement; he will no longer face murder charges.

Bacos, 21, admitted to being present at the killing of an Iraqi civilian last April near the village of Hamdania.

Military authorities allege that Marines on patrol with Bacos pulled Hashim Ibrahim Awad from his home and shot him to death before staging his remains to make it appear he was an insurgent trying to plant a bomb.

Bacos confirmed that version of events Friday, saying that the Marines were incensed that a man who they were convinced was an insurgent had been let out of jail. All the men agreed that if their target was not at home, they would attack someone at random.

Awad was a neighbor of the man, who wasn't home when they sought him out.

Bacos said that he urged the men to let Awad go, but they refused. Instead, he said, they put Awad in a hole and shot him numerous times. A rifle and a shovel were placed near Awad, to make the case that he was caught planting road-side explosives.

Isn't this what the insurgents do?

 

[Gokul43201]

Haditha charges expected to be announced today...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/haditha.marines.ap/

 

[russ_watters]

Haditha charges expected to be announced today...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/haditha.marines.ap/

That article paints a vey different picture of what happened from what had been discussed earlier:

The shootings occurred after a roadside bomb killed one Marine from a squad on patrol. In the aftermath of the blast, five Iraqi men were shot as they approached the scene in a taxi and others -- including women and children -- died as Marines opened fire on a cluster of houses in the area.

I haven't really been following this issue - has it come out that the marines did not enter the homes?

 

[Gokul43201]

I haven't really been following this issue - has it come out that the marines did not enter the homes?

Not from anything I've come across. I think CNN is reporting the final (before investigations began) Military account of the incident in the quote above.

 

[Gokul43201]

Update: Marine squad leader charged with 13 counts of murder; no charge of premeditated murder:

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif., Dec 21 (Reuters) - The U.S. military charged a Marine squad leader with 13 counts of murder in the killings last year of unarmed civilians in Haditha, Iraq, one of the man's defense lawyers said on Thursday.

The charges handed down against Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich carry a maximum penalty of life in prison, but do not include premeditated murder, said attorney Mark Zaid.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21200494.htm

Update 2: More charges follow:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/iraq.haditha/

Neal Puckett, another of Wuterich's attorneys, said the sergeant faces 12 counts of unpremeditated murder against individuals and one count of the murder of six people "while engaged in an act inherently dangerous to others."

What does that last one mean? I'm guessing it's related to the killing of the people inside the house, but it's not clear to me what eactly the charge is.

 

[Rach3]

I thought rampaging mass murder is an "act inherently dangerous to others."

 

[BobG]

Update: Marine squad leader charged with 13 counts of murder; no charge of premeditated murder:



http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21200494.htm

Update 2: More charges follow:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/21/iraq.haditha/


What does that last one mean? I'm guessing it's related to the killing of the people inside the house, but it's not clear to me what eactly the charge is.

I think it's basically the equivalent of second degree murder, although the last 6 are in a category that might be considered slightly below second degree murder - kind of second degree murder, but with extenuating circumstances.

The charges sound fair. The soldiers didn't plot to kill innocent civilians. The charges acknowledge that the murders occurred immediately after a stressful situation.