Did When Clinton Lied, No One Died Ignore Larger Issues?

[russ_watters]

I seem to recall a thread in which conservatives argued that there are times when it is okay to lie--for the greater good--remember? I guess it does not suit your purpose now.

I suspect you didn't finish reading my opening post - that is addressed. Please reread.

 

[edward]

I'd prefer to get of this Clinton-sex thing, it isn't really relevant my point: my point in this thread is that Clinton killed people, so implying that he didn't is, at best, political rhetoric.

I would prefrer you would get off the Clinton thing too. It only obscures the present.
There have been genocide and slaughter in Sudan and Darfur during the Bush presidency and what did he do? He even opposed sanctions, like sanctions against Sudan would have changed anything.

http://www.prospect.org/web/page.ww?section=root&name=ViewWeb&articleId=9622

Congress wants to act on Darfur, but the Bush administration is dead set against that.

 

[arildno]

What "broad&sweeping" assertion did I make?
You are the one obfuscating the matter by lumping together criminal acts with a voluntary BJ.

 

[Informal Logic]

What "broad&sweeping" assertion did I make?
You are the one obfuscating the matter by lumping together criminal acts with a voluntary BJ.

Precisely.

...the lie is about a personal matter that is no one’s business.

= consenting adults = no harm = not illegal. The examples are not of this description.

 

[arildno]

Besides being gibberish (jurors? offices?), that doesn't answer the question: what is the basis for your stance? In a country ruled by the law, there needs to be a real reason to disregard the law. 'arildno thinks what goes on in the bedroom should be free from scrutiny' is not a logical/legitimate basis for an argument.

1. Well, I thought "juror" was the name for a member of a jury.
2. From what I know, "office" may be used in English not only to designate a work-place, but also to designate the job itself (as in "to hold an office").
3. Disregard the law?
What law states that a court is empowered to demand answers concerning perfectly legal actions that have no bearing or relevance to criminal acts?

 

[Informal Logic]

I suspect you didn't finish reading my opening post - that is addressed. Please reread.

You make reference to other threads (in philosophy), but seem to be arguing that a lie is a lie - Then you seem to argue that blood is blood regardless of whether it is caused by lies.

Is lying the key or is it the blood that matters?

In the case of the Bush regime, it is lying that causes blood that matters.

 

[Moonbear]

my point in this thread is that Clinton killed people, so implying that he didn't is, at best, political rhetoric.

But I don't think that's related to the bumper sticker comment (though it's always hard to tell; I'm not very fond of bumper stickers as a means of conveying serious messages). The bumper sticker comment is focused on the lies, not on whether people died due to inaction/indecision/ineptitude, or whatever other reasons you can come up with for why people died under either the Clinton or Bush (or any other) administration. I think the idea is that if he lied about it, then he was fully aware he was wrong, and had he not lied, very different decisions may have been made on how to proceed.

I suppose we could debate whether it's really worse for people to die as a consequence of someone deliberately misleading those who made the decision to send them to death vs dying as a result of someone being totally honest but wavering on making a decision or making an error in decision while watching those people dying. I guess the main difference is active vs passive.

 

[deckart]

Precisely.
= consenting adults = no harm = not illegal. The examples are not of this description.

It's not so much as to what he did, it's where he did it. It is unacceptable behavior to turn the oval office into your personal sexual playground. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to the American people, the position and what it stands for. For people to make light of it is outrageous.

 

[Mercator]

It's not so much as to what he did, it's where he did it. It is unacceptable behavior to turn the oval office into your personal sexual playground. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to the American people, the position and what it stands for. For people to make light of it is outrageous.

Hey at least we know what Bill "stood" for
And it's even funnier to see how some Americans take their personal moral values for the law.
Thought: why did nobody ever think of charging Monica with rape of an official in function? . If I would have been Bill...

 

[RunDMC]

Actually, as much as I admire Clinton, he was at the helm during the US missile attack that destroyed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory in Khartoum. The claims by Clinton and the US administration that the factory was making a chemical component of nerve gas have largely been discredited.

The death toll was placed at around 4,000 -- but the UN and many other analysts put the death toll much, much higher when you count the deaths caused by under-supply of medicines due to the bombing.

In a perfect world Republicans and Democrats would work together for peace. A dying child doesn't care who's president. Let's not be smug about who is right or wrong about Iraq, Sudan, etc.

 

[Mercator]

Actually, as much as I admire Clinton, he was at the helm during the US missile attack that destroyed the Al-Shifa Pharmaceutical Factory in Khartoum. The claims by Clinton and the US administration that the factory was making a chemical component of nerve gas have largely been discredited.

The death toll was placed at around 4,000 -- but the UN and many other analysts put the death toll much, much higher when you count the deaths caused by under-supply of medicines due to the bombing.

In a perfect world Republicans and Democrats would work together for peace. A dying child doesn't care who's president. Let's not be smug about who is right or wrong about Iraq, Sudan, etc.

Do you think that it could be that some people in Khartoum thought of this as a terrorist attack?

 

[wasteofo2]

You're all arguing about global issues as they relate to a bumper sticker...

 

[The Smoking Man]

You're all arguing about global issues as they relate to a bumper sticker...

Yup ... That's the attention span of the Average American.

Most are still waiting for the war to come out in re-runs because they missed an episode.

 

[Mercator]

Yup ... That's the attention span of the Average American.
Most are still waiting for the war to come out in re-runs because they missed an episode.

I'd be more interested in the oral office episiode though.

 

[RunDMC]

Do you think that it could be that some people in Khartoum thought of this as a terrorist attack?

Some UN officials actually named the incident as an example of state-sponsored terrorism. But who cares about the labels? The results are the worst part.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

When Clinton lied, no one died" - is factually true, but logically flawed and pointless and therefore just mindless, useless rhetoric

What a load. Factually true is where it ends, but I know that the facts confuse the issue for some people. The rest of your statement is in fact rationalizations and rhetoric intended to justify the actions of a criminal president. Using your standard, all president are guilty of many crimes. The difference is that Bush not only committed a crime against us and 2000 dead US soldiers, he and his kind seek to subvert the Constitution at every turn - according to the oath that you took, the very definition of the enemy. Your argument would suggest that there is no difference between Al Capone and the average person who cheats on their taxes.

"Shock and awe" and possibly starting WWIII vs what, sex?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

On whether or not anyone had the right to investigate the president's sex life...
At my current job I work with several atractive females whom I have authority over. It is considered both unethical and a firable offense for me to "fraternize" with them let alone "get a BJ" from one. Why there would be any difference with regard to the president and someone working under him I have no clue.

On lying about the "BJ"... Lying is not considered an ethical practice in most situations and most especially when you are guilty of an unethical act. If receiving a "BJ" from a subordinate is generally considered unethical then lying about it is also unethical.

On the bumber sticker focusing on lies and not deaths...
It is a very common practice to imply something in a statement such as this by throwing around information you want the listener/reader to pay attention to while supposedly talking about something else. This often avoids direct inquiry into information you don't want being brought up. So the underlying impression given by the staement being discussed is that Bush is responsable for deaths and Clinton is not. It does not directly state this but it is implied by the manner in which the statement is made.

 

[GENIERE]

...Your argument would suggest that there is no difference between Al Capone and the average person who cheats on their taxes...

The difference is?

 

[The Smoking Man]

The difference is?

Your confusion is of little surprise.

 

[Gokul43201]

It is unacceptable behavior to turn the oval office into your personal sexual playground. It's disgraceful and disrespectful to the American people, the position and what it stands for.

Why ?

 

[Mercator]

Some UN officials actually named the incident as an example of state-sponsored terrorism. But who cares about the labels? The results are the worst part.

Actually my question was academic. I don't care so much about what the UN officials think. Nobody seems to make the effort to empathize with the Sudanese. Why? Why was the whole world schocked with 9/11 and did not give a damn about the Khartoum terror act?

 

[Manchot]

On whether or not anyone had the right to investigate the president's sex life...
At my current job I work with several atractive females whom I have authority over. It is considered both unethical and a firable offense for me to "fraternize" with them let alone "get a BJ" from one. Why there would be any difference with regard to the president and someone working under him I have no clue.
On lying about the "BJ"... Lying is not considered an ethical practice in most situations and most especially when you are guilty of an unethical act. If receiving a "BJ" from a subordinate is generally considered unethical then lying about it is also unethical.

Ethicality \ne morality \ne legality. I think when people get that one fact straight, world peace will ensue.

On the bumber sticker focusing on lies and not deaths...
It is a very common practice to imply something in a statement such as this by throwing around information you want the listener/reader to pay attention to while supposedly talking about something else. This often avoids direct inquiry into information you don't want being brought up. So the underlying impression given by the staement being discussed is that Bush is responsable for deaths and Clinton is not. It does not directly state this but it is implied by the manner in which the statement is made.

So, I guess my question is this: what is your point? The same thing could be said about any political statement made by anyone.

By the way, Russ, you never addressed my inquiry about how my analogy was a bit of a stretch. The way I see it, unless you do so, the whole topic is moot.

 

[Skyhunter]

When in doubt, invoke Clinton

With everything going on in current politics, you are still hung up an Clinton?

Get over it russ.

 

[Informal Logic]

On whether or not anyone had the right to investigate the president's sex life...
At my current job I work with several atractive females whom I have authority over. It is considered both unethical and a firable offense for me to "fraternize" with them let alone "get a BJ" from one. Why there would be any difference with regard to the president and someone working under him I have no clue.
On lying about the "BJ"... Lying is not considered an ethical practice in most situations and most especially when you are guilty of an unethical act. If receiving a "BJ" from a subordinate is generally considered unethical then lying about it is also unethical.
On the bumber sticker focusing on lies and not deaths...
It is a very common practice to imply something in a statement such as this by throwing around information you want the listener/reader to pay attention to while supposedly talking about something else. This often avoids direct inquiry into information you don't want being brought up. So the underlying impression given by the staement being discussed is that Bush is responsable for deaths and Clinton is not. It does not directly state this but it is implied by the manner in which the statement is made.

It could be "that woman" was the aggressor--not an uncommon occurrence for men in power--or the possibility of being framed. Regardless, it appears it was consensual, so no sympathy for Monica from me. Unprofessional behavior per company policy could result in the company taking action, or the offended employee taking action, but this remains a civil matter and certainly not the basis for impeachment proceedings.

BTW, the slogan has been used on signs at protests for some time, so I think it originated in the anti war movement. It stands for more than just being a bumper sticker.

 

[Lisa!]

By request, a debunking of this rhetorical-nonsensical bumper sticker. For clarity, the complete thought that it is meant to imply would read:
'When Clinton lied about sex, no one died as a result, but when Bush lied about the WMD in Iraq, 2000+ American soldiers and countless Iraqis died as a result'
There are several glaring problems with this bumper sticker:
First, yes, it is trivially obviously true that no one died as a result of Clinton's lie about sex - but so what? Is lying the key or is it the blood that matters?

I admit I can never understand you. Once you say "there are more important things to do in this country than argue about an issue that changes very little..., but now you're blaming a president for telling lies about his sex life. I agree that there's a difference btw this 2. (since Bush isn't get involved in abortion issue personaly) But anyway both of them are as trivial as each other. In fact I was always surprised how on the Earth the US judical system allowed themselves to investigate in this case!
Seriously can't you see the differences btw these 2 lies? I don't think so.
I don't know what you're going to say by bringing up this argument. It's like I ask X about what he's done wrong. And he'd talk to me about what Y had done wrong in the past!

Anyway, Clinton isn't the president of US now and it's not so important what the hell he did during his presidency. I mean it's important but only for learning lessons. The important thing is ,what Bush is going to do in the future.


PS If you ask me to choose btw bad and worse, I'd choose bad=(clinton). For me Clinton was a dangerous and clever politician, but Bush is only a terrible joke.(I don't mean what he's doing sounnds funny to me, I mean I always ask myself how he got to become the president of the US for the second time! )

"When Clinton lied, no one died" - is factually true, but logically flawed and pointless and therefore just mindless, useless rhetoric.

You don't want to say Bush's a good present because the death are less during his presidency?

edit: Some may note that there are no links in this thread. The Somalia and Rwanda debacles are well-documented pieces of history and if people don't know what happened in those two incidents, you should be ashamed of yourself - but I'll provide some documentation if you need it.

For sure US troops and administration wouldn't be ashmed of themselves for what you said, because they fine know what they've done.

 

[russ_watters]

With everything going on in current politics, you are still hung up an Clinton?
Get over it russ.

Though I started the thread, I didn't bring this up, Skyhunter. I'd be prefecly happy to let Clinton go if he and the Democrats who idolize him would do so.

This thread is an offshoot of https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=97329&page=3" thread, started by a democrat and mentioning Clinton in the OP and the "when clinton lied no one died" was brought up by another democrat. This thread is a response to that.

I'll respond to more later...

 

[Skyhunter]

'When Clinton lied about sex, no one died as a result, but when Bush lied about the WMD in Iraq, 2000+ American soldiers and countless Iraqis died as a result'
There are several glaring problems with this bumper sticker:
First, yes, it is trivially obviously true that no one died as a result of Clinton's lie about sex - but so what?

There are no problems, it is accurate.

So turn it into something else so you can use it for an argument.

Is lying the key or is it the blood that matters? Clinton did cause the deaths of a great many people, so if that's the point of the bumper sticker (the deaths, not the lies), it misses its own point: Whether directly caused by a lie or just due to incompetence/failure to act shouldn't be relevant. Clinton's list is a healthy one. Off the top of my head: Somalia, Iraq, Yugoslavia, Rwanda, Sudan, Afghanistan, the Cole, Khobar towers, WTC 1, 9/11. I'm sure I missed some.

Irrelevant, and you are using a double standard. Damning him for taking action, damning him for not taking action.

We can debate the depths of his screwups or compare body counts if you guys want, but the best example, to me, is probably Somalia. 18 soldiers and several thousand Somalians died as a result of a botched snatch-and-grab job. In the aftermath, the Secretary of Defense resigned because he personally denied a request for armor. But that was part of Clinton's policy on minimalistic warfare, and is absolutely his fault.
Though they aren't Americans (does that matter?), I consider the Rwanda thing worse. Upwards of a million people were hacked to death with machettes while military analysts figured we could have stopped it with 10,000 troops, in a matter of days. This failure to act (other countries hold some blame, but as always, we are the most capable of acting in that type of situation) was cited by numerous international investigations into the genocide. But even worse, many of those investigations concluded that mere international pressure could have had a big impact. Clinton failed to even denounce the genocide, or even label it as such, until long afterwards.

Your opinion intersprersed with a few facts.

Obvious, but less important is the assumption on which the slogan is based: that Bush lied.

Why when Bush lied is it less important than when Clinton lied?

Now the case for that is far from clear-cut, and while I have no desire to argue the case itself, I will say that it is irrelevant.

What is not clear cut about it?

He was told that Niger/Iraq/uranium connection was false.

He made the accusation in his State of the Union address knowing it was untrue.

What is lying, if not making statements you know to be false?

What matters is whether we were right or wrong to go into Iraq

Was invading Iraq the right thing to do?

- and no, even if it was based on a lie, that doesn't automatically make the actions wrong. Again, we can debate the right-ness or wrong-ness of the war till the cows come home, but that doesn't change the fact that the slogan is based on that logical fallacy (lie automatically equals wrong). I can hear the huffing already, but let me repeat that a little more directly: deception is not always wrong. And before you reply, stop and think about it: you already know that it's true. If not, search our philosophy forums for discussions about it before replying.

So from the jist of what you are saying Bush may have lied but that is irrelevant because we needed to attack Iraq anyway.

To sum-up:
"When Clinton lied, no one died" - is factually true, but logically flawed and pointless and therefore just mindless, useless rhetoric.
edit: Some may note that there are no links in this thread. The Somalia and Rwanda debacles are well-documented pieces of history and if people don't know what happened in those two incidents, you should be ashamed of yourself - but I'll provide some documentation if you need it.

Again I must ask, why are you so all charged up about Clinton?

And bumper stickers are rhetorical. However it isn't mindless or useless.

[edit] I would also add that lying is wrong, whether about sex or war. Clinton's lie did not constitute a high crime IMO. Bush's on the other hand is treason. IMO.

 

[Art]

Though they aren't Americans (does that matter?), I consider the Rwanda thing worse. Upwards of a million people were hacked to death with machettes while military analysts figured we could have stopped it with 10,000 troops, in a matter of days. This failure to act (other countries hold some blame, but as always, we are the most capable of acting in that type of situation) was cited by numerous international investigations into the genocide. But even worse, many of those investigations concluded that mere international pressure could have had a big impact. Clinton failed to even denounce the genocide, or even label it as such, until long afterwards.

Out of interest Russ, what do you think Clinton should have done?

Intervening in other people's civil wars rarely gains the gratitude of either side and although the Tutsis suffered by far the most casualties they weren't exactly the good guys either.

They had recently initiated a civil war in neighbouring Burundi (which still continues) by assassinating the newly elected president because he was a Hutu and they didn't want to relinguish power. They were also marching on the capital of Rwanda and did indeed take it thus ending the massacre of Tutsis and (starting the massacre of Hutus).

It is also worth noting that the vast majority of the killing was done in a matter of a few days so it is unlikely that any country could have assembled a force quickly enough to prevent the massacre.

Although the massacres were utterly deplorable it is hard to see how you can prevent two groups, each hell bent on exterminating the other side, from doing so and if you pick a side to support then you are aiding and abetting genocide yourself as both sides were guilty of the practice..

As for international pressure stopping the slaughter. I don't think so. The Hutu gov't started the slaughter because they were about to be arrested and charged for war crimes under a peace agreement and so had nothing to lose.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Ethicality \ne morality \ne legality. I think when people get that one fact straight, world peace will ensue.

One, I did not mention morality. Though dictionary definitions may not exactly argee with me I consider "morals" to be predominantly faith based and "ethics" to be based purely on logic.
Secondly, the law, and hence legality, is based on "ethics" or rather logical conclusions about the proper manner by which to interact in an orderly and functional society. Or at least it should be.
The day people get a clue world peace should ensue.

So, I guess my question is this: what is your point? The same thing could be said about any political statement made by anyone.

Hence my statement including the words "common practice".
I bring this up in response to those that say the statement is about lies and not about deaths. The matter of deaths is obviously implied.
And just to be clear I am not implying that Clinton was ever responsable for any deaths in this statement.

It could be "that woman" was the aggressor--not an uncommon occurrence for men in power--or the possibility of being framed. Regardless, it appears it was consensual, so no sympathy for Monica from me. Unprofessional behavior per company policy could result in the company taking action, or the offended employee taking action, but this remains a civil matter and certainly not the basis for impeachment proceedings.

Largely irrelevant. If someone subordinate to my authority were to make sexual advances towards me and we had consentual "sexual relations" I would still be dismissed from my position. Again I see no reason why this should differ with regard to the president especially considering that his position is of vastly greater importance than mine and as such should demand a higher standard of professionalism.
Considering the basis for impeachment, how else would you go about dimissing the president of the United States of America for misconduct? Would you just hand him his walking papers and tell him to clear out of the oval office?

 

[The Smoking Man]

One, I did not mention morality. Though dictionary definitions may not exactly argee with me I consider "morals" to be predominantly faith based and "ethics" to be based purely on logic.
Secondly, the law, and hence legality, is based on "ethics" or rather logical conclusions about the proper manner by which to interact in an orderly and functional society. Or at least it should be.
The day people get a clue world peace should ensue.
Hence my statement including the words "common practice".
I bring this up in response to those that say the statement is about lies and not about deaths. The matter of deaths is obviously implied.
And just to be clear I am not implying that Clinton was ever responsable for any deaths in this statement.
Largely irrelevant. If someone subordinate to my authority were to make sexual advances towards me and we had consentual "sexual relations" I would still be dismissed from my position. Again I see no reason why this should differ with regard to the president especially considering that his position is of vastly greater importance than mine and as such should demand a higher standard of professionalism.
Considering the basis for impeachment, how else would you go about dimissing the president of the United States of America for misconduct? Would you just hand him his walking papers and tell him to clear out of the oval office?

Okay, since you are talking about 'world' peace, who's 'ethics' shall we judge by? Who's version of 'justice'?

Shall we go by the 'open commune' model where sexuality is largely irellevent or Arabian law where the woman would be stoned?

As far as I know, levels of morality are a problem even within the USA. What's good in Salt Lake City and Boston may not be the same as the standards in Long Beach or Las Vegas.

So, will you enjoy the 'extreme' Mormon attitude of having sex through a hole in a sheet?