Diff. forms: M_a = {u /\ a=0 | u in L}

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a mathematical exercise from Flanders' book concerning the dimensions of a subspace \( M_\alpha \) defined by a non-zero \( p \)-vector \( \alpha \) in an \( n \)-dimensional space \( L \). Participants explore the conditions under which the dimension of \( M_\alpha \) equals \( p \) and challenge the claims made in the text regarding linear independence and dimensionality.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the condition \( \alpha = \sigma^1 \wedge \cdots \wedge \sigma^p \) necessarily implies \( \dim(M_\alpha) = p \).
  • Another participant asserts that the equality \( \alpha \wedge \sigma = 0 \) implies that \( \sigma \) belongs to the subspace spanned by \( \{\sigma^1, \ldots, \sigma^p\} \).
  • A participant provides a counterexample using a basis of \( L \) and claims that if \( \alpha = \sigma^1 \wedge \sigma^2 \) with specific choices for \( \sigma^1 \) and \( \sigma^2 \), then \( \dim(M_\alpha) = 1 \), contradicting the text's claim of \( 2 \).
  • Another participant argues that the vectors \( \sigma^1 \) and \( \sigma^2 \) are independent, suggesting that \( \dim(M_\alpha) \) should not be \( 1 \) as previously stated.
  • Further exchanges highlight a disagreement on the dimensionality of \( M_\alpha \) based on the independence of the chosen vectors.
  • One participant expresses frustration over the tone of the discussion, indicating a perceived breakdown in civil discourse.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the dimensionality of \( M_\alpha \) or the implications of the conditions set forth in the exercise. Multiple competing views remain regarding the independence of vectors and the correctness of the textbook claims.

Contextual Notes

The discussion reflects uncertainty regarding the assumptions about linear independence and the implications of the mathematical definitions provided in the exercise. The claims made by participants depend on specific choices of vectors and their relationships within the defined space.

kiuhnm
Messages
66
Reaction score
1
Here's exercise 1 of chapter 2 in Flanders' book.
Let ##L## be an ##n##-dimensional space. For each ##p##-vector ##\alpha\neq0## we let ##M_\alpha## be the subspace of ##L## consisting of all vectors ##\sigma## satisfying ##\alpha\wedge\sigma=0##. Prove that ##\dim(M_\alpha)\leq p##. Prove also that ##\dim(M_\alpha)=p## if and only if ##\alpha=\sigma^1\wedge\cdots\wedge\sigma^p## where ##\sigma^1,\ldots,\sigma^p## are vectors in ##L##.
(I wrote ##\sigma^1,\ldots## above, but Flanders wrote ##\sigma_1,\ldots## in this exercise. Weird: he uses upper indices in the theory sections.)

My question is this: Isn't it false that if ##\alpha=\sigma^1\wedge\cdots\wedge\sigma^p## where ##\sigma^1,\ldots,\sigma^p## are vectors in ##L##, then ##\dim(M_\alpha)=p##?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
kiuhnm said:
if α=σ1∧⋯∧σp\alpha=\sigma^1\wedge\cdots\wedge\sigma^p where σ1,…,σp\sigma^1,\ldots,\sigma^p are vectors in LL, then dim(Mα)=p\dim(M_\alpha)=p?
equality ##\alpha\wedge \sigma=0##implies that ##\sigma## belongs to the subspace spanned on ##\{\sigma^1,\ldots,\sigma^p\}##
 
wrobel said:
equality ##\alpha\wedge \sigma=0##implies that ##\sigma## belongs to the subspace spanned on ##\{\sigma^1,\ldots,\sigma^p\}##

Let ##\{u^1,u^2,u^3,u^4\}## be a base of ##L##. If we take ##\sigma^1=u^1+u^2## and ##\sigma^2=u^3+u^4## then ##\sigma^1## and ##\sigma^2## are clearly vectors in ##L##, but if ##\alpha=\sigma^1\wedge\sigma^2## then ##\dim(M_\alpha)=1## and not ##2(=p)## as claimed by the text.
The ##\sigma##s also need to be linearly independent!
 
The \sigma^i are necessarily independent since \alpha\neq 0.

In your example, both \sigma^1 and \sigma^2 are in M_\alpha. They are independent, so the dimension of M_\alpha is not 1.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: kiuhnm
kiuhnm said:
Let ##\{u^1,u^2,u^3,u^4\}## be a base of ##L##. If we take ##\sigma^1=u^1+u^2## and ##\sigma^2=u^3+u^4## then ##\sigma^1## and ##\sigma^2## are clearly vectors in ##L##, but if ##\alpha=\sigma^1\wedge\sigma^2## then ##\dim(M_\alpha)=1## and not ##2(=p)## as claimed by the text.

Nope, the dimension is still 2.
 
kiuhnm said:
then dim(Mα)=1\dim(M_\alpha)=1 and not 2(=p)2(=p) as claimed by the text.
Thus the textbook is wrong so am i, you have comprehended everything and there is no need for you to learn any more
 
wrobel said:
Thus the textbook is wrong so am i, you have comprehanded everything and there is no need for you to learn any more

I thought we were having a civil discussion. Guess I was wrong.
 
Infrared said:
The \sigma^i are necessarily independent since \alpha\neq 0.

In your example, both \sigma^1 and \sigma^2 are in M_\alpha. They are independent, so the dimension of M_\alpha is not 1.

Yes, you're right. Thank you.
 

Similar threads

Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
5K