Dirty electricity and EMI filter

  • Thread starter Cleitus
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  • #1
Cleitus
Does EMI filter still work if you live near a base station which produces dirty electricity? Or EMI filter only filter the dirty electricity which would have been generated from your power circuit if w/o EMI filter?
 

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  • #2
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How do you know the "dirty" electricity is coming from the base station? How dirty is the electricity? If it definitely is coming from the base station you can contact the Enforcement Bureau of the FCC who may require the base station owners to clean it up. The standards are as follows. You may need a spectrum analyzer to be sure it is over these limits. (Good luck finding a line impedance stabilization network.)

§15.107 Conducted limits.
(a) Except for Class A digital devices, for equipment that is designed to be connected to the public utility (AC) power line, the radio frequency voltage that is conducted back onto the AC power line on any frequency or frequencies within the band 150 kHz to 30 MHz shall not exceed the limits in the following table, as measured using a 50 μH/50 ohms line impedance stabilization network (LISN). Compliance with the provisions of this paragraph shall be based on the measurement of the radio frequency voltage between each power line and ground at the power terminal. The lower limit applies at the band edges.

Frequency of emission (MHz) Conducted limit (dBμV)
Quasi-peak
Average
0.15-0.5 66 to 56* 56 to 46*
0.5-5 56 46
5-30 60 50
*Decreases with the logarithm of the frequency.

(b) For a Class A digital device that is designed to be connected to the public utility (AC) power line, the radio frequency voltage that is conducted back onto the AC power line on any frequency or frequencies within the band 150 kHz to 30 MHz shall not exceed the limits in the following table, as measured using a 50 μH/50 ohms LISN. Compliance with the provisions of this paragraph shall be based on the measurement of the radio frequency voltage between each power line and ground at the power terminal. The lower limit applies at the boundary between the frequency ranges.

Frequency of emission (MHz) Conducted limit (dBμV)
Quasi-peak
Average
0.15-0.5 79 66
0.5-30 73 60
(c) The limits shown in paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section shall not apply to carrier current systems operating as unintentional radiators on frequencies below 30 MHz. In lieu thereof, these carrier current systems shall be subject to the following standards:

(1) For carrier current systems containing their fundamental emission within the frequency band 535-1705 kHz and intended to be received using a standard AM broadcast receiver: no limit on conducted emissions.

(2) For all other carrier current systems: 1000 μV within the frequency band 535-1705 kHz, as measured using a 50 μH/50 ohms LISN.

(3) Carrier current systems operating below 30 MHz are also subject to the radiated emission limits in §15.109(e).

(d) Measurements to demonstrate compliance with the conducted limits are not required for devices which only employ battery power for operation and which do not operate from the AC power lines or contain provisions for operation while connected to the AC power lines. Devices that include, or make provision for, the use of battery chargers which permit operating while charging, AC adaptors or battery eliminators or that connect to the AC power lines indirectly, obtaining their power through another device which is connected to the AC power lines, shall be tested to demonstrate compliance with the conducted limits.

[54 FR 17714, Apr. 25, 1989, as amended at 57 FR 33448, July 29, 1992; 58 FR 51249, Oct. 1, 1993; 66 FR 19098, Apr. 13, 2001; 67 FR 45670, July 10, 2002]
 
  • #4
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Please explain what you mean by an EMI filter and how you would use it.
 
  • #6
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Please read Dirty electricity, cellular telephone base stations and neoplasia.

I would be very delighted if someone could "specifically" explain ---> whether EMI filter works on EMF pollution from nearby sources.

Not knowing the details of the filter nor the frequencies or amplitudes in your "dirty electricity" it isn't possible to say whether it will work or not. You should contact the manufacturers for that. Please consider a few things first.
1. Greenwave's filter claims to reduce "dirty electricity" from 506 mV to 48 mV, a 90 % reduction. That sounds like a lot, yet it amounts to only 20 dB which with EM energy is a relatively minor amount.
2. Your electrical wiring is inside conduit which effectively shields nearly all "dirty energy" from radiating. If you are noticing that it is affecting appliances in your house, it may be a good idea. Otherwise I don't think you need it.
3. The Greenwave site mentions that it works from 10 kHz to 30 MHz, yet many of the sources of "dirty energy" they mention operate at much higher frequencies. Even the base stations you mention are likely well above the range of these filters. For those sources these filters would be useless.
4. The health effects Greenwave claims from radiated EM at those frequencies and power levels have been discredited by hundreds if not thousands of studies.
 
  • #7
Cleitus
Thanks very much for all your efforts in trying to provide an answer. I appreciate it.

However, in regards to the health effects due to EMF being discredited by many studies, I will perform my own research into this (most likely will take years) and I can tell you that there were also many research which have disproved the knowingly "well established studies".

Most studies look into direct relationship, however, most science does not have a clear direct relationship and thus will need to look into the interactive effects of the explanatory. Though many studies have been conducted, however, if an experimental design has/have flaw/s, it is near impossible to observe the true response from the explanatory. Needless to say if the experimental design is bias towards aiming to obtain the response they want to observe, you will never find the truth.
 
  • #8
berkeman
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Thread closed for Moderation...
 
  • #9
berkeman
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Thread re-opened provisionally...
Would you like to pay the fee for me to read this paper? It looks like it is behind a pay wall.
This doesn't help muvh.
This is a link to a standard set of products. They are intended to to be designed into electronic products to keep their conducted EMI low enough to pass the FCC tests that skeptic2 posted above. They are not meant to prevent large spikes conducted onto the powerlines by whatever "base stations" are.
However, in regards to the health effects due to EMF being discredited by many studies, I will perform my own research into this (most likely will take years) and I can tell you that there were also many research which have disproved the knowingly "well established studies".
Please re-read the PF rules that you agreed to when you joined the PF (under INFO at the top of the page). You need to post links to mainstream peer-reviewed journal articles if you want to discuss science here. Not propose conspiracy theories and post links to questionable sources.

Now, can you please start by better defining what a "Base Station" is? for me at least, this is not obvious so far from your posts.
 
  • #10
berkeman
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I would be very delighted if someone could "specifically" explain ---> whether EMI filter works on EMF pollution from nearby sources.
Also, do you understand about how filters like powerline EMI filters are "directional"? They are constructed to attenuate noise from being conducted out of electronic devices, not to keep AC Mains spikes from getting into the device and causing disruptions of operation. There are other design techniques that we use to prevent that.
 
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  • #11
CWatters
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I've spent time down a salt mine trying to ensure computers, set top boxes and similar products neither emit or are susceptible to unwanted signal. It's not an easy job. Even with decent test equipment and years of experience it was not unusual to find that changes we made had unexpected effects. For example some unwanted frequencies would be reduced but others would actually get worse. In short you can't just slap in a filter and assume things will automatically improve you have to test the set up to be sure.
 
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  • #12
rbelli1
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you can't just slap in a filter and assume things will automatically improve

It's very frustrating when using standard design practices to reduce noise makes the situation worse. This happens internally to electronic systems not just on the powerline.

Now, can you please start by better defining what a "Base Station" is? for me at least, this is not obvious so far from your posts.

Also please describe how that entity generates the noise you are concerned about.

BoB
 

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