Do Fields Affect 4-Momentum Conservation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the implications of fields in the conservation of four-momentum during particle collisions, particularly in elastic collisions. Participants explore whether potential energy associated with fields should be considered in the conservation equations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if conservation of four-momentum assumes a field-free idealization, suggesting that potential energy from changing particle positions should be included in the conservation equation.
  • Another participant notes that similar considerations apply in nonrelativistic physics, implying a broader relevance of the discussion.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that as long as no new particles are produced in the interaction, the initial and final momenta should remain equal, regardless of intermediate interactions.
  • Some participants argue that the energy and momentum of the fields must be included, citing the example of positronium, where the bound state has less energy than free particles, indicating that energy must be accounted for.
  • Further elaboration on positronium suggests that the process of electron-positron annihilation into photons can be analyzed using conservation equations, despite the complexities of intermediate states.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether fields and their associated energies should be included in conservation equations, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights potential limitations in assumptions about field effects and the treatment of intermediate states in conservation laws, but these aspects remain unresolved.

SiennaTheGr8
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When we encounter particle-collision problems that call for invoking the conservation of four-momentum, are we tacitly assuming a field-free idealization (or at least negligible potential energy)?

For example, say particles 1 and 2 collide elastically. Then the conservation of four-momentum says:
$$\mathbf{P}_{1,i} + \mathbf{P}_{2,i} = \mathbf{P}_{1,f}+ \mathbf{P}_{2,f}$$ (where ##i## means initial and ##f## means final).

But in reality, there's potential energy associated with the (changing) relative positions of the particles, isn't there? So to express the full picture, would we add ##\mathbf{P}_{\textrm{field},i}## to the left side and ##\mathbf{P}_{\textrm{field},f}## to the right side?
 
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We do something similar in nonrelativistic physics.
 
SiennaTheGr8 said:
But in reality, there's potential energy associated with the (changing) relative positions of the particles, isn't there?
Well, you'd better ask yourself what would happen if you consider the momentum of the particles 1,2,3,4 pretty "far-away" , that is final corresponding to t \rightarrow \infty and initial to t \rightarrow - \infty (or you can see infinity as 'very large').
As long as no new particles as asymptotic states are produced by the interaction of 1,2 to 3,4 the momenta of initial and final should be equal by conservation of energy/momentum... no matter what happened inbetween, since anything that happens inbetween is going to conserve the momentum..
 
You do need to include the energy+momentum of the fields. A bound positron and electron (positronium) has less energy than a free positron and electron. That extra energy has to come from somewhere!
 
Khashishi said:
You do need to include the energy+momentum of the fields. A bound positron and electron (positronium) has less energy than a free positron and electron. That extra energy has to come from somewhere!
the bound state of electron and positron [positronium] is again giving you some photons... and the result is again to take: Let's say you have this process:
e^- e^+ \rightarrow P(^1S_0) \rightarrow \gamma \gamma
again you can use p_{e-} + p_{e+} = p_{\gamma} + p_{\gamma}... as if you forget what happened at the intermediate step.
 

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