Do Photons Have Mass and Kinetic Energy?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the nature of photons, specifically whether they possess mass and kinetic energy. Participants explore theoretical implications, gravitational interactions, and the relationship between mass and energy in the context of general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that photons should gain mass due to their speed, questioning how this relates to gravitational effects like lensing and black holes.
  • Others clarify that photons have energy and momentum but do not possess invariant mass, emphasizing that gravity interacts with energy rather than mass in general relativity.
  • A participant expresses confusion about the relationship between mass and kinetic energy, proposing a formula that implies mass is variable for electromagnetic rays.
  • Some participants reference the stress-energy tensor as a more comprehensive framework for understanding gravity, noting that mass is not explicitly included in Einstein's field equations.
  • There are mentions of additional resources and papers, although some participants find them off-topic or unrelated to the original question.
  • Discussions about the nature of tensors and their representations arise, with participants seeking clarity on these concepts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether photons have mass or kinetic energy, with multiple competing views presented throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes varying interpretations of mass, energy, and gravitational interactions, with some participants expressing uncertainty about the implications of their claims and the relevance of external resources.

mubashirmansoor
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As I was reading about photons, Some of the information was puzzeling for like; photons have no mass or that they don't have a kinetic energy.

I understood having a zero mass at rest but when traveing with the speed of light the photons should gain a mass ( I think ) because of 2 universal evidences 1) The space-time curvature of a body such as a star causes the gravitational lensing and should the light have a mass to be affected by the mass of the sun? 2) The light is completely trapped in a black hole because of its extreamly intense gravity or the space-time wrapture so should it have a mass to be effected by the gravity?

The next was about the Kinetic energy of light but if I understand the problem with the mass I will sure solve this one myself :smile:

I'll be really thankfull for your answers.

To make much more clear what I mean is that; If and if photons gain a mass due to their speed they probably have a kinetic energy too. right?
If so than E= (2ke/c^2)c^2 which means E=2ke which again means:
E=2(mv^2/2) where v=c so E= mc^2 And this shows that the mass is directly proportional to its speed and that the mass is variable at least in case of Electromegnatic rays...??

Now I'm 15 years old and I haven't yet studied the other types of masses expressed in many of the posts. so I would thankfull for using simple forms of explanation, THANKYOU...:smile:
 
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i am loathe to answer, because even if i quote nearly verbatim from my 30 year old Modern Physics text (Beiser), what i would say would be contradicted by many here. or, at least, they would say that the perspective of such is more complicated or contrived or just not as "right" as the perspective that is in vogue now. so i'll leave it to someone else.
 
It sounds like the OP has worked hard to confuse himself.

Photons have energy, and momentum. What they don't have is mass (invariant mass).

(Do photons have kinetic energy? It's hard to say, but they definitely have energy! That's the important point).

The fact that photons don't have mass also does not mean that photons do not interact with gravity. The idea that "mass causes gravity" is an old idea from Newtonian gravity. In GR, gravity couples to energy, not mass. To be more precise, the source of gravity in GR is the stress-energy tensor - not mass.
 
mubashirmansoor said:
As I was reading about photons, Some of the information was puzzeling for like; photons have no mass or that they don't have a kinetic energy.

I understood having a zero mass at rest but when traveing with the speed of light the photons should gain a mass ( I think ) because of 2 universal evidences 1) The space-time curvature of a body such as a star causes the gravitational lensing and should the light have a mass to be affected by the mass of the sun? 2) The light is completely trapped in a black hole because of its extreamly intense gravity or the space-time wrapture so should it have a mass to be effected by the gravity?

The next was about the Kinetic energy of light but if I understand the problem with the mass I will sure solve this one myself :smile:

I'll be really thankfull for your answers.

To make much more clear what I mean is that; If and if photons gain a mass due to their speed they probably have a kinetic energy too. right?
If so than E= (2ke/c^2)c^2 which means E=2ke which again means:
E=2(mv^2/2) where v=c so E= mc^2 And this shows that the mass is directly proportional to its speed and that the mass is variable at least in case of Electromegnatic rays...??

Now I'm 15 years old and I haven't yet studied the other types of masses expressed in many of the posts. so I would thankfull for using simple forms of explanation, THANKYOU...:smile:

have a look at the answer given by rbj at the thread photon mass i have started. i consider that it is the clearest approach to the problem.
 
mubashirmansoor ... you remind me of myself and pervect has the right idea.

use this tool as well as take a riding on reading ...

http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0503313

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/cond-mat/pdf/0503/0503313.pdf

http://lanl.arxiv.org/PS_cache/math-ph/pdf/0511/0511054.pdf

pervect ... that is beautiful. Stress energy tensor nice 'new' stuff... I kept thinking "entanglement." But this cross over is a round about method I have been trying to arrange for quite some time. Thank you for the theoretical description.

and your right again Photon's do not exhibit the properties of "invariant mass" but "yes" they have mass and can share it's spin in associations

feshbach resonance ??

again thank you very much
 
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Toist, Thankyou for the links. The links are perfect but some how not related to wht I asked...:)
 
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Taoist said:
pervect ... that is beautiful. Stress energy tensor nice 'new' stuff... I kept thinking "entanglement." But this cross over is a round about method I have been trying to arrange for quite some time...

? It's the Einstein field equations!

mubashirmansoor said:
Toist, Thankyou for the links. The links are perfect. :)

The first paper was completely off-topic, as far as I was aware. SLE? Conformal Field Theory?

Is anyone else confused?
 
masudr said:
? It's the Einstein field equations!



The first paper was completely off-topic, as far as I was aware. SLE? Conformal Field Theory?

Is anyone else confused?

<ZapperZ raises hand>

I just thought we'd see where this ends when the blind leads the blind...

Zz.
 
Well, to be a bit more serious

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/gr/

talks about the stress-energy tensor. The basic idea is really not all that hard, one combines energy density (a scalar), momentum density (a 3-vector), and pressure (a 3x3 matrix) into a big 4x4 matrix, called the stress-energy tensor.
 
  • #10
Incidentally, would you say the matrix IS the tensor? I'd say it's the tensor expressed in a certain basis... I'm not being pedantic, just checking to make sure my notions aren't wrong.
 
  • #11
It's probably best to say that the matrix is a representation of the tensor.

The main point is that a lot of things contribute to gravity in GR - energy, momentum, and pressure. Mass per se, however, is not one of those things that appear explicitly in Einstein's field equations for gravity.

Mass indirectly contributes to gravity, of course, through it's contribution to energy, which is explicitly part of the stress-energy tensor.
 

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