Does {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} form a set?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around whether the expression {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} constitutes a set, particularly in the context of group theory and axiomatic set theory. Participants explore the implications of repeated elements within sets and the definitions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that if a is a member of a group, then a^(-2)a simplifies to a^(-1), leading to the conclusion that {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} is equivalent to {a^(-1)} and thus still forms a set.
  • Others argue that a set cannot contain repeated elements, questioning whether {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} qualifies as a set under this premise.
  • One participant asks for clarification on which axiom of axiomatic set theory justifies the creation of the set in question.
  • Another participant elaborates that while sets cannot contain duplicates, the concept of redundancy does not invalidate the existence of a set, using the example of the image of a function to illustrate this point.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of sets and the implications of repeated elements, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without a clear consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the definitions and axioms related to sets, particularly in the context of group theory and the treatment of elements within sets.

tgt
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Does {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} form a set?
 
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I'm not sure what you mean. If a is just a member of some arbitrary group, then [itex]a^{-2}a=a^{-1}[/itex] and so [itex]\{a^{-2}a,a^{-1}\}=\{a^{-1}\}.[/itex] But it's still a set.

But perhaps you mean something else?
 


A set cannot contain repeated elements so if a is a member of a group then
[itex]\{a^{-2}a,a^{-1}\}[itex]wouldn't be a set?[/itex][/itex]
 


tgt said:
Does {a^(-2)a, a^(-1)} form a set?

According to what axiom in axiomatic set theory you created that set?
 


A set cannot contain repeated elements so if a is a member of a group then

In regular notation, we would say that {x} = {x, x} = {x, x, x}, etc.

It's not that a set can't contain duplicate entries... it's that you aren't allowed to ask "how many copies" of something are in a set.

Here's an example of something quite similar. The image (sometimes called the range) of a real function f, is the set

[tex]\{f(x) | x \in R\}[/tex]

Let f be the sine function. The image is then [tex]\{sin(x) | x \in R\}[/tex].

Notice that this means that [tex]sin(0), sin(\pi), sin(2\pi), sin(3\pi)[/tex], etc, are all in the image. But they are all 0! Does that mean that the image isn't a set, since 0 is in there many times? Not a bit. But the extra entries are redundant in this particular case.

Another way to make this clearer is to think of the notation [tex]X = \{x_1, x_2, ...\}[/tex] as a shorthand for
[tex]x_1 \in X, x_2 \in X, ...[/tex]
 

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