Does a Magnetic Field Do Work on Electrons in a Wire?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether a magnetic field does work on electrons in a wire, exploring concepts related to magnetic forces, electric fields, and the implications of Faraday's law. The scope includes theoretical considerations and applications in electromagnetism and electric generators.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how a magnetic field can do work on electrons, noting that the magnetic force is perpendicular to the velocity of the charge, suggesting that no work is done.
  • Another participant agrees that magnetic forces never do work.
  • It is proposed that a time-varying magnetic field can induce an electric field that does work, referencing Faraday's law.
  • A participant connects the concept of work done by a changing magnetic field to the operation of electric generators and induction motors.
  • There is a discussion about the application of Faraday's law in both integral and differential forms, with one participant expressing confusion about the implications of a constant magnetic field near a wire.
  • A further inquiry is made regarding the understanding of magnetic fields in terms of locally acting potentials and their effects on electrons in a conductor.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that magnetic forces do not do work directly, but there are competing views regarding the role of time-varying magnetic fields and the implications for electric fields and generators. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the application of Faraday's law and the nature of magnetic fields in this context.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions about the constancy of the magnetic field and the conditions under which Faraday's law applies. The relationship between magnetic fields and electric fields, particularly in the context of work done, remains complex and is not fully resolved.

Phrak
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How does a magnetic field do work on the electrons in a wire?

If F = q v x B, the magnetic field is always perpendicular to the velocity of the free charge. After a small time interval, dx = v dt, so that v and x are in the same direction.

For the magnetic field to do work on the charge, dW = F dot dx. But F and dx are perpendicular, aren't they?, so no work seems to be done.
 
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That's right. Magnetic forces never do any work.
 
A time varying magnetic field will lead to an electric field that does work.
An example is Faraday's law.
 
An electric generator does work because the field changes?
 
nicksauce said:
That's right. Magnetic forces never do any work.
A magnetic field acting on a permanent or electric magnetic can do work.
 
Phrak said:
An electric generator does work because the field changes?
That is how an induction motor works.
Other motors use a permanent or electric magnet as an armature,
and a magnetic field does do work on the armature.
 
Pam, thank you for answering.

You threw me so far. I am now sure you are applying Faraday's law in integral form,
[tex]\int _{_\partial S} \overline{E} ds = -\int _{S} \partial_{t}\overline{B}dxdy[/tex] ,
it must surely be.

This makes some very good sense.

I could not possibly see how to apply Faraday's law in differential form,

[tex]\nabla\times \overline{E} = -\partial_{t}\overline{B}[/tex].

Unfortunately, I still cannot.

In the vicinity of the wire B is unchanging, we should presume. In such a manner [tex]\partial_{t}\overline{B}[/tex] should be zero as well, in this locally manner. But should this not make [tex]\nabla \times \overline{E}[/tex] zero as well?

Something I am missing.
 
Can this be understood in terms of a field that doesn't act at a distance?

Does a locally acting 4-vector potential, A and Dirac's equation of A acting on the phase of the free electrons in a conductor make some sense of it?
 

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