Does God Exist? Evidence & Arguments For & Against

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The discussion centers on skepticism towards the belief in God, particularly within the context of Christianity and its rejection of evolution. The original poster expresses frustration over the persistence of creationist views, highlighting a specific example of a Christian advocating for the teaching of creationism in schools instead of evolution. They criticize the use of science fairs to promote religious beliefs, citing projects that reflect anti-evolutionary sentiments and sexist views. The conversation touches on the perceived conflict between faith and scientific evidence, with participants debating the existence of God, the implications of evolution, and the role of morality without a divine framework. The discourse also explores the idea that belief in God may stem from a need for control or understanding in a complex world, while emphasizing the importance of education and critical thinking in addressing these issues. Overall, the thread reflects a deep concern about the impact of religious dogma on scientific education and societal progress.
  • #31
Little Mermaid

For all I know this is a hoax but I've seen the story on the TV program It's A Miracle. It is pretty captivating. The link refers to the true story which was made into a movie, which gives a general synopsis of the story.

http://www.charitysplace.com/review/review_mermaid.htm
 
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  • #32
Originally posted by maximus
the original DNA? my question pertains more to how did we get that DNA in the first place? how was life created?

That, of course, I don't know. I, like all of us, speculate.


God could have send an angle servent that selected a warm nutrient rich pool and deposited the original DNA in it to grow, reproduce and diversify endlessly to become all of life on Earth including of course us.

The complex chemicals in said pool could have combined radomly unil one compination became self replicating accidently.

Complex chemicals could have combined in outer space in the clouds of dust under the influence of hard and soft radiation unil it became self replicating and grew and multiplied in space to be eventually brought to Earth and who knows how many other planets in this galexy
by comets and/or meteors.

An extraterrestial race may have sent out a probe intentionally or accidently contaminated with DNA and it intentionally or accidently landed or crashed on Earth and infected it with that DNA.

Take your pick or think up a different scenario. I do know that all life here on Earth from the simplest one celled life form to the most complex is one single life form. All life shares the same DNA with the same structure and made up of the same amino acids. Of course it varies in length and sequence but it is the same. We humans have reminents of that single original DNA in our DNA.
We can and do take snips and pieces of our human DNA and splice it into he DNA of bacteria. It grows and reproduces and flourishes and produces human insulin that diabetics inject into themselves keeping them alive and healthy with no obvious harmful side effect to either the bacteria or humans. All life of Earth is the same organism in millions of different forms.
 
  • #33
Quite true... We'll probably be speculating for quite some time .
 
  • #34
Questions here:
1) If God is omnipotent, then can God make a rock that God can't lift? Please do not say he would not do such things, this is not the point, it is whether he can do it or not.
2) If God made the Earth, then why do we want to go to heaven?



Religion is like farting: we like our own but hate everyone elses.
 
  • #35
God issue

Regarding to the God issue (wether or not He/It exists) what can one say?

First of all, I do not assume that, apart from my mind, and outside and independend of it, a God exists. Not that I can 'proof' that, for how can one proof the non-existence of something not even clearly defined.

How I arrive at that conclusion is that acc. to my mind, we can conceive of the material, objective world as having been there all the time, having no begin or end. Since there is a world now, and we can not possibly conceive of a world popping into existence from nothing, that is why we can not conceive of a beginning of time.
However, reality shows us, that we can not look back infinitely far, all we will ever measure are finit spatial extends and finite duration.
All things that exist (being specific formations of matter) exists within a finite space and time extend. But since all matter is in motion always, there will be always material causes for some specific material configuration coming into existence (for instance the formation of a stellar object, a galaxy, a planet, a bacteria) and all material formations will leave traces of their existence after that specific material configuration has gone extinct.
This is how we observe the world to be.

Now one other thing is that, even when we have good grounds to assume that the history of the universe has no begin, reality presents us with the fact that there are observational limits. So any concrete assumption on how the universe looked like prior to a specific point, becomes less know, the more we look back in time, and observational evidence prior to a certain point even blurs out completely.
Nevertheless we have some grounds to make models and theories for what happeneded before that time, which are not just wild guesses, but bases itself on predictions that can be made from that model, the describe how the current observable universe would look like.
As far as that is concerned, we can at least differentiate between some models, and rule out some possibilities.

There is nevertheless and always will be a limit to our knowledge, even when that limit has been shifted forwards in the course of history.

What to claim then about something we miss factual knowledge about?

It is a well known fact that for our human organism to survive, we must react on dangers and outside stimuli, which sometimes do not provide enough data to make a specific assumption on the thing we observe. Here is where belief comes into play. Our brains are wired in such a way that even when no sufficient data is available, we will make some assumption as to what the nature of the incoming data reflects upon. Sometimes this is done using prior experiences, to make something out of this insufficient data.

Let us face a human dilemma. You are in the middle of a desert without water, and have no clue as to what direction you will find the nearest well. The human mind will then make a 'best guess' even if no data is available to sustain the guess. But we can know for sure that not making any guess will kill us, and making a guess will at least provide for the chance that we picked the right direction.

This means that to 'believe' something, in the absence of real knowledge is the better choice. In the absence of real knowledge about how nature works, the believe in a god could not be considered to be something wrong.
But as we know human knowledge increased drastically. For most things the explenation that 'God did it' will not be a good explenation, since we have actual knowledge that could explain these phenomena.

The question is however, that even when our knowledge is increasing, fact is we will never reach a point in which we know everything about anything. Taking material history to be infinite (without an actual beginning in time, but only a observational limit) would indicate that all we can go for is a limited amount of knowledge.

Not understanding part of the factors that caused us to be here, will always be the case. Does this imply we should then belief in a God, cause we will indeed have an important part of our knowledge missing?

My argument against it would be, that even when a profound understanding of the material history prior to a certain point in time is a fact, even when new developments in cosmology, physics and other sciences, might reveal some more about this history, will be lacking, a belief in God is really not much more then a placeholder for missing knowledge. It's not an actual or factual explenation, it does not make us understand anything at all.
Missing knowledge in the field of pre-big bang cosmology or abiology (formation of the first life forms) and missing links in evolution, are not really a crucial factor in every day life. We will eventually fill those gaps with actual knowledge, despite that we will never conceive of all knowledge about everything, but at least we will have enough knowledge to reduce the amount of "wild guesses" or speculations which absolutely have no grounds, like the theistic doctrines.
Fundamental principles or absolute ideas or deities, residing at the bottom layer of existence, do not make it into the real world as real entities, rather they are fixations of the mind, an idealization of reality itself.
 
  • #36
Originally posted by Royce
That, of course, I don't know. I, like all of us, speculate.


God could have send an angle servent that selected a warm nutrient rich pool and deposited the original DNA in it to grow, reproduce and diversify endlessly to become all of life on Earth including of course us.

The next question would obviously be... Where did the original DNA come from? And research I see suggests that it is unlikely that life was initially just DNA. There probably was an initial RNA stage, as RNA was better equipped to grow in the early Earth conditions.

And doesn't this strike you as a little inefficient? It is more plausible that God simply accelerated time, or just waited until life arose on it's own. What's the hurry for an immortal?
 
  • #37
These days there's no particular reason for God to exist, apart from, to create wars...

I don't know God doesn't exist, but I doubt he does.


There are so many variations on the truth about God that I woudln't know which one was right.
 
  • #38
You got my vote GOD!

I say, Yeah!
 
  • #39
I'd hate to think anyone believed in God just because Einstien said he did...
 
  • #40
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!
 
  • #41
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!

How can you say God doesn't exist: For sure...
 
  • #42
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!


buddy, I'm tempted to report this, even if you are joking. I'm not religious myself, but this is going to get you kicked out pretty fast. this isn't the only thread in which I've seen you talk like this. I'm just warning you...
 
  • #43
Originally posted by maximus
buddy, I'm tempted to report this, even if you are joking. I'm not religious myself, but this is going to get you kicked out pretty fast. this isn't the only thread in which I've seen you talk like this. I'm just warning you...


First off I'm not your buddy. Secondly, shut up and mind your own business. Thirdly, I already reported it myself to save you the trouble - quit your whining newbie.
 
  • #44
Originally posted by PhysicsRocks88
Of course God, of any type, doesn't exist.

It still sickens me that in 2003 people still believe in mythology and superstition.

Grow up, use your brain properly. Religious people have probably never actual had a single thought process whatsoever - burn them alive!
Hmmm... Reminds me why I almost never post in this forum... :wink:
If I did I'd risk occassionaly expressing myself in the above manner which would be highly unfotunate for everybody's nervous systems including mine.

Anyway, PR88, you should see the full half of the glass -
in our over-populated and highly competative world it's
good to have a head-start on some people. :wink:

Peace and long life.
 
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  • #45
Originally posted by FZ+
The next question would obviously be... Where did the original DNA come from? And research I see suggests that it is unlikely that life was initially just DNA. There probably was an initial RNA stage, as RNA was better equipped to grow in the early Earth conditions.

And doesn't this strike you as a little inefficient? It is more plausible that God simply accelerated time, or just waited until life arose on it's own. What's the hurry for an immortal?

All of what you say is possible of course. My feeling is that there may indeed have been RNA which I would think means some form of self replicating "life". However If God wanted to control the kindof life here on this planet and give preprogramed direction, then the DNA would have been created possibly even in a Lab by his minions and brought here. This really beyound speculation going into pure imagination.
If he is immortal why would he bother speeding up time but simply wait until conditions were right?

Anouther question just popped into my mind. Has there ever been any kind of determination of when cells began haveing mitachondria in them time wise? I haven't heard of any and wonder if someone else has.
 
  • #46
Originally posted by Royce
All of what you say is possible of course. My feeling is that there may indeed have been RNA which I would think means some form of self replicating "life". However If God wanted to control the kindof life here on this planet and give preprogramed direction, then the DNA would have been created possibly even in a Lab by his minions and brought here. This really beyound speculation going into pure imagination.
If he is immortal why would he bother speeding up time but simply wait until conditions were right?

Anouther question just popped into my mind. Has there ever been any kind of determination of when cells began haveing mitachondria in them time wise? I haven't heard of any and wonder if someone else has.


On mitochondria...

...bacteria were at one point just mitochondria.

Other than bacteria - all life that has a mitochondria in it, has the mitochondria identical to a bacteria. For example, human mitochondria IS ACTUALLY bacteria mitochondria. That is why it is RNA, and so is bacteria.

SO the answer is life was initially a mitochondria itself, and then further life in fact contained the mitochondria of that life in it.
 
  • #47
I'd hears that it was thought that it might have originally been a symbiotic relationship or parasitic that developed into one. Maybe a single celled animal ate a mitachondria but couldn't digest it. Any way this is way of the subject. thanks and sorry.
 
  • #48
does god exist?

If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

Next question.
 
  • #49


Originally posted by quantumcarl
If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

this is true in a personal growth sense, but as I've said before there can only be one truth in the universe. the universe does not change for every person's belief. god cannot exist and not exist at the same time. this is a basic logical contradiction. one answer must be right.
 
  • #50
I'd hate to think anyone believed in God just because Einstien said he did...
It's worth noting that this is a common misconception. Einstein's god was not the conventional guy with beard, but the god of Spinoza. In short, his god was simply the personification of his belief in the beauty and order at the heart of the universe. Einstein left organised religion. Hence the context of his assertion that "god does not play dice". He means that he cannot belief that a beautiful and ordered universe would have a random and inexplicable basis.
 
  • #51
OK, I thought that, because of his belief in God he tryed to hard to prove the UPs wrong...
 
  • #52
personaly i think god was, yes as siad before, used to control and set morals and laws for people and yes give people reason, explantion and hope. But now all that separates those who believe and don't beilve is the hope and explantion parts (the government aka american jesus has taken over morals and control and reason quite nicely) Those who don't need hope don't need religion if your ok about not really haveing a will or a "soul" that after you die you kind of don't exist. But, i don't think that people who don't beilve should be going around telling eveyrone god dosent exist (unless it is here where everyone is entiteled to their opinions) becuase that will disalusion them and make their meaningless existence apperant and that ofcourse would be bad for the american jesus becuase it will make their workers unhappy.
 
  • #53
Originally posted by FZ+
It's worth noting that this is a common misconception. Einstein's god was not the conventional guy with beard, but the god of Spinoza. In short, his god was simply the personification of his belief in the beauty and order at the heart of the universe. Einstein left organised religion. Hence the context of his assertion that "god does not play dice". He means that he cannot belief that a beautiful and ordered universe would have a random and inexplicable basis.
And yet this is the same belief a lot of people hold (myself included), which speaks more of God "in essence" (spiritually), as opposed to customs and rituals which are practiced by religion.

This is very well put FZ+! :wink:
 
  • #54
That original post Alex, is effing sickening. I know to you as to me, I wonder why it is I have to live in a time period where I am so much more advanced in logic and reason than this scum.
 
  • #55
Originally posted by MasterBlaster
That original post Alex, is effing sickening. I know to you as to me, I wonder why it is I have to live in a time period where I am so much more advanced in logic and reason than this scum.
Erm... I don't think we need quite that great an ego, hmm? Always to ready to accept being wrong, regardless of probabilities. When talking about God, it helps not to elevate oneself to a position of omniscient entity as well... Watch out, you might disprove yourself...:wink:
 
  • #56
Originally posted by FZ+
Erm... I don't think we need quite that great an ego, hmm? Always to ready to accept being wrong, regardless of probabilities. When talking about God, it helps not to elevate oneself to a position of omniscient entity as well... Watch out, you might disprove yourself...:wink:

I have no more ego than I have worked for by being rational and logical.

I'm not omniscient - I have plenty of very worth colleages. However some people are certainly of a greater ability than others. There is scum in the world, it's the hate-filled maniacs who try to enslave others into their world.
 
  • #57
I wonder whatever happened to Logical Atheist? Hmm ... :wink:
 
  • #58
Originally posted by Iacchus32
I wonder whatever happened to Logical Atheist? Hmm ... :wink:

Wonder no more!
 
  • #59


Originally posted by quantumcarl
If you say so.

What you believe is true... for you.

Next question.

NO. What is true is true - weather you effin' like it or not.

Deal with it. There is NO such thing as a God.
 
  • #60


Originally posted by MasterBlaster
NO. What is true is true - weather you effin' like it or not.

Deal with it. There is NO such thing as a God.

When dealing with the issue of existence, it is perhaps trivial to ask as to what existence category a certain 'thing' or 'concept' belongs.

When one is asked wether or not a duck that can talk exists, the answer given by most people will be no.

But when it is asked wether or not one is familiar with the comic figure Donals Duck (who, as we know, is a duck that can talk), then most people will answer yes.

So, does a duck that can talk exist?

Conclusion:

It is important to know what we define as our existence category, in order to answer the question. If that is not given implicitly, we need to ask and define for it explicitly.

So, does God exist?

No, since there does not exist a 'creator' of the universe. God has no real physical existence.

Yes, since God is defined as such in books as the Bible, and therefore does exist.

Like in the previous example, there is no real contradiction. Even though a duck that really can talk is not something we can conceive of, we have no problem in accepting the existence of Donald Duck.

In the same way, for the real world, which exists objectively, apart from and outside of our mind, we can not conceive of that it was 'created' by a mere concept of the mind itself. Despite that, some pepople nevertheless seem to have no problem to believe in such deities, to fullfill there 'spiritual needs'.
 
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