Does Gravity Bend Light or Curve Space-Time?

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Gravity does not pull on photons directly; instead, it curves the space-time through which light travels, making it appear bent. This curvature is essential for understanding phenomena such as black holes, where space-time is significantly warped. Inside a black hole's event horizon, the curvature of space-time tips the light cone, preventing any light from escaping to the outside. The discussion also touches on the complexities of gravitational effects on light and massive particles, emphasizing the need for a solid grasp of general relativity to fully comprehend these concepts. Overall, the consensus is that gravity's influence on light is due to the curvature of space-time rather than a direct force on the photons themselves.
  • #31
jtbell said:
In the 1970s and 1980s, Harold Puthoff and his collaborator Russell Targ spent a lot of time studying and promoting the supposed psychic phenomenon of "remote viewing." They claimed that some people could describe locations accurately without ever having visited them or seen pictures or descriptions of them. This makes warning bells go off in my head whenever I see Puthoff's name mentioned.

It is OK that warning bells go off when you see research into psychic penomena. It is however not OK (to me) if that puts the person in question automatically in the class "crackpot". Since nobody knowns all the laws of physics, nobody can tell with certainty that a certain reported event is absolutely impossible. If a scientist considers psychic penomena, it just means that he has an open mind. The problem with paranormal phenomena is however that they are not reproducable at will in a laboratory. Therefore (and only therefore) they belong not to science (which supposes that everyone can repeat the same experiment).

Rudi
 
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  • #32
jtbell said:
In the 1970s and 1980s, Harold Puthoff and his collaborator Russell Targ spent a lot of time studying and promoting the supposed psychic phenomenon of "remote viewing." They claimed that some people could describe locations accurately without ever having visited them or seen pictures or descriptions of them. This makes warning bells go off in my head whenever I see Puthoff's name mentioned.
Hi,
I just forgot to mention in a previous post that a lot of respected scientists have shown a clear interest in the paranormal. Brian Josephson was awarded a Nobel prize for work on superconductivity. Yet, he later turned to other phenomena on the fringes of science (such as psychokinesis, telepathy, etc.).

Rudi

PS : read also posts 29-31
 
  • #33
Thank gosh for referees!

Well, notknowing (Rudi?),

I see that you quoted some of what I wrote, but I feel that your comments attack straw men, rather than responding to any position I have actually expressed. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the validity of such statements as "most journals are so defensive and conservative that they do not even want to consider the possibility that some new idea might be correct". In my opinion, trying to understand why Einstein, Dirac, and Dicke are held in high honor by mainstream physicists is far more important than trying to understand why particular ideas suggested by figures at the opposite end of the spectrum are regarded with jaundiced eye, so now that I know that where you make your stand, I'll give up trying to persuade you of the value of detecting Dreck.
 
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  • #34
Chris Hillman said:
Well, notknowing (Rudi?),

I see that you quoted some of what I wrote, but I feel that your comments attack straw men, rather than responding to any position I have actually expressed. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about the validity of such statements as "most journals are so defensive and conservative that they do not even want to consider the possibility that some new idea might be correct". In my opinion, trying to understand why Einstein, Dirac, and Dicke are held in high honor by mainstream physicists is far more important than trying to understand why particular ideas suggested by figures at the opposite end of the spectrum are regarded with jaundiced eye, so now that I know that where you make your stand, I'll give up trying to persuade you of the value of detecting Dreck.
Hi Chris,

I just wanted to show that Puthoffs work is a continuation of journal-published work and that he has also published part of his work in a recognised journal (I gave references). So, I still do not understand the negative attitude ("figures at the opposite end of the spectrum") about him.

Rudi
 
  • #35
Jheriko said:
I think that it is naive to assume that curvature is a stumbling block for quantum gravity and that it must be based on a background flat space-time.

If we don't make that assumption it doesn't hurt us, since flat is just a special case of curved we could "come out with" a flat space-time for a QG theory anyway.

There is a paper floating around somewhere that demonstrates that even if you do start from a flat space time with the weak field approximation, the flat space-time becomes physically unobservable and a curved space-time is 'induced' by the presense of a gravitational field... I will see if I can find it.

That and I'm sure that I have read in numerous places that the real issue is renormalisation, since all of the 'charges' (masses) are positive there are no known ways to remove the infinities from the renormalisation.

Renormalisation is something that should be done away with more than curvature in my opinion... it is a rather arbitrary process, the sort of thing I would do (have done) in a computer program to force something to give results in an expected range. The only valid use I see is to normalise *one* thing, e.g. a vector, to get a unit vector. Renormalising a whole field just seems wrong from my narrow perspective... in my opinion a better solution (probably not possible though) would be a wave equation which produces already normalised values. Sure, nothing would ever add up to 100%, but you would have the right answers and would have done away with an ugly feature.

I think there are several papers in this vein around. For example, http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/astro-ph/0006423

However, there is apparently more to this question. See for instance

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/PUB/deser

Since Strauman skipped over some of these issues, we perhaps can't blame Puthoff TOO much for skipping over them too, but it would seem difficult for Puthoff to avoid these sorts of issues.

I believe that experimental tests of these issues may be possible. A cosmological test would be the "circles in the sky" test.

http://www.citebase.org/abstract?id=oai%3AarXiv.org%3Agr-qc%2F9602039

If we assume (for the sake of argument) that there is a self-consistent theory that enforces a particular topology on space-time but is somehow locally equivalent to GR, observations of a multiply connected topology (such as the 'circles on the sky', or wormholes for that matter) would be a serious blow to such theories. Perhaps you could add in non-trivial topologies to such theories "by hand", but that would be very unimpressive "fix-up" physics, where one puts in ugly stuff by hand to try and match current experimental results. Such theories generally aren't very strong, it is much better to have a theoty that predicts new and previously unknown results.

If I understand Chris Hillman's position on this issue correctly, he believes that there isn't even a self-consistent theory of this nature (?). I'm not sure I understand his position properly though.
 
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  • #36
MeJennifer said:
Pervect, I was simply asking a question on what you wrote: :smile:


Obviously I am talking about the top and the bottom of the elevator in your example.
If the elevator accelerates exactly as in a gravitational field does the distance between the top and the bottom change?
If so, would it not be a logical assumption that since top and bottom are in relative motion with each other that there must be a Lorentz factor involved?

OK, if we imagine the Rindler metric as an elevator...

In this elevator, the acceleration goes on, without change, for infinity, so there are no dynamical issues. The elevator never starts accelerating or stops accelerating - it is, and always has been accelerating. This makes the math a lot simpler and avoids a lot of "rigid body" related issues.

Both the distance (integrated Lorentz interval) and the light-travel time between the top and the bottom of the elevator are constant.
 
  • #37
pervect said:
OK, if we imagine the Rindler metric as an elevator...

In this elevator, the acceleration goes on, without change, for infinity, so there are no dynamical issues. The elevator never starts accelerating or stops accelerating - it is, and always has been accelerating. This makes the math a lot simpler and avoids a lot of "rigid body" related issues.

Both the distance (integrated Lorentz interval) and the light-travel time between the top and the bottom of the elevator are constant.
If that were true then would there not be only one kind of accleration?
But we can distinguish between proper acceleration and acceleration outside the accelerating frame, would that not indicate a Lorentz factor to you?
 
  • #38
pervect said:
OK, if we imagine the Rindler metric as an elevator...

In this elevator, the acceleration goes on, without change, for infinity, so there are no dynamical issues. The elevator never starts accelerating or stops accelerating - it is, and always has been accelerating. This makes the math a lot simpler and avoids a lot of "rigid body" related issues.

Both the distance (integrated Lorentz interval) and the light-travel time between the top and the bottom of the elevator are constant.

Did you maybe find the time to take a short look at my little derivation in post 29 ? I'm afraid it was drown into the other messages ...
I'm not so sure there are no dynamical issues at constant acceleration. At every small time step, the bottom of the elevator is increased in speed relative to to the top of the elevator ...
 
  • #39
MeJennifer said:
If that were true then would there not be only one kind of accleration?
But we can distinguish between proper acceleration and acceleration outside the accelerating frame, would that not indicate a Lorentz factor to you?

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. This thread is getting a bit overloaded, so I'll start another thread about distance in accelerated frames.
 
  • #40
Clarifying my position

Hi all,

pervect said:
there is apparently more to this question. See for instance

http://www.math.ucr.edu/home/baez/PUB/deser

I also believe that Jheriko was probably referring to the work by Deser et al. on an infinite sequence of corrections to the naive linearized theory, which eventually "yields general relativity". (This is one of the most difficult, but most intriguing, routes to "deriving gtr from first principle".)

pervect said:
If we assume (for the sake of argument) that there is a self-consistent theory that enforces a particular topology on space-time but is somehow locally equivalent to GR,

This is an essential point (unfortunately probably too sophisticated for PF, since it might take years of graduate level study to appreciate "local" versus "global" issues, and most readers here do not possesses this kind of background). There were one or two threads in sci.physics.research on this point long ago, where I and others pointed out that newcomers to the literature can easily misunderstand claims from string theory proponents, for example.

pervect said:
If I understand Chris Hillman's position on this issue correctly, he believes that there isn't even a self-consistent theory of this nature (?).

I insist that the "local versus global distinction" is absolutely critical when examining claims that some theory constitutes a "reinterpretation" or "reformulation" of gtr. In particular, I believe that the work of Deser et al. (which is solidly mainstream) need to be carefully interpreted in this light. That is, if I am not mistaken, Deser et al. show that under their assumptions, in any sufficiently small neighborhood one must obtain something indistinguishable from gtr. I would add that it shouldn't be surprising that a classical field theory of gravitation, which is a metric theory, might have difficulty in unambiguously determining a unique topology, or that for many "initial values", solutions in such a theory might develop Cauchy horizons, so such difficulties appear to be common to a large class of theories.

As far as I tell, it is not yet known whether some well-defined theory of gravitation exists which is "locally equivalent" to gtr, but which in some sense excludes solutions which are spacetimes with nontrivial topology. Although there are many claims to this effect in the literature, as far as I can recall, I consider the ones I have studied unconvincing or even incorrect. And I think we must expect that obtaining the required "topological filter" in a convincing fashion might be very difficult. It appears to me that this would require exiting the domain of classical field theories.

One can also ask whether or not there is yet rock-solid evidence for nontrivial topological features of the universe in which we live. Or perhaps better put: one can ask whether or not there is rock-solid evidence that no model in gtr (Lorentzian four-manifold plus any additional mathematical structure required to describe nongravitational physics in the model) which fails to feature nontrivial topology can be consistent with all the available evidence. As far as I know, a reasonable answer would be "not yet, but astrophysics seems to be generally headed in that direction".

Note that nontrivial topological features could arise in many ways:

1. It might turn out that the "best-fit" FRW models are actually quotient manifolds of an FRW lambdadust model, having nontrivial topology (c.f. Cornish and Weeks),

2. Of those (lamentably rare!) known exact solutions in gtr which have clear and unobjectional physical interpretations, including many models of black holes, many do feature nontrivial topology. (For example, the Kerr vacuum is homotopic to the real line with circles attached to each integer, and the deSitter lambdavacuum is homeomorphic to {\bold R} \times S^3.) However, "idealized but realistic models" would presumably be (at best) nonlinear perturbations of exact solutions with nontrivial symmetries, so to tell whether or not gtr firmly predicts nontrivial topological features in realistic scenarios, one would have to characterize a local neighborhood (in the solution space) of one of these solutions. At present, the only rigorous results appear to concern models like Minkowski vacuum (small nonlinear perturbations of Minkowski vacuum are indeed homeomorphic to {\bold R}^4 and de Sitter lambdavacuum (small nonlinear perturbations of de Sitter lambdavacuum are indeed homeomorphic to {\bold R} \times S^3). Caution: these results are actually a bit weaker than we would really want, even in the case of these particular neighborhoods, which are unfortunately not the ones we really want.
 
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  • #41
notknowing said:
I did not find it in literature. I made a simple derivation myself, though I must admit that I still miss a factor two somewhere :blushing: .
Suppose you have a rocket (or elevator if you like) in free space. What I'm interested in is not the length Lorentz contraction, but a contraction due to acceleration itself. Therefore, to separate both effects, I assume that the rocket is initially at rest. If the effect is due to acceleration only, this assumption should not influence the result. Next, the rockets are switched on, which induce a push on the "back" of the rocket. An external observer is located at some distance in a line perpendicular to the velocity of the rocket.
At the moment the acceleration starts, the back of the rocket is set into motion, while the front of the rocket is absolutely still, since it takes a time L/c for the "push" to reach the top of the spacecraft (L is length of rocket). This is purely a consequence of the finite speed of light, to be distinguished from an elastic compression. Then, one just calculates the length the bottom has moved in the time T=L/c using Dx=a*t^2/2 (where a is the acceleration). The new length is then L-a(L/c)^2/2. Dividing this by L gives the contraction factor :
1-aL/(2*c^2). This can be considered as a Taylor expansion of SQRT(1-aL/c^2). Now, the corresponding term for aL in a gravitational field is GM/R, such that one obtains the contraction factor SQRT(1-GM/c^2 R). This is very similar (except for the factor 2) to the true length contraction SQRT(1-2*GM/c^2 R) in a gravitational field.

Rudi

Here are my comments.

The time taken for the "push" to reach the front of the rocket is going to be equal to L/(speed of sound in rocket material), not L/c.

The front of the rocket is then going to undergo some complicated dynamic oscillations.

Eventually it will reach some "steady state" length. Your analysis doesn't address what this steady state length is.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "contraction due to the acceleration itself". If you look at the steady state length, this would be due to the Young's modulus of the rocket material. Looking at an non-equilbrium "length" isn't going to tell us anything meaningful, in my opinion - but that's what your analysis is looking at.
 

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