Does pressure affect equilibrium vapor pressure (or RH)?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between pressure and equilibrium vapor pressure (EVP), as well as its effect on relative humidity (RH). Participants explore theoretical concepts and thought experiments regarding how changes in external pressure influence the behavior of water in a sealed environment, particularly focusing on evaporation, boiling, and saturation states.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that EVP is solely dependent on temperature, suggesting that external pressure does not affect it.
  • Others argue that while EVP remains constant at a given temperature, reduced external pressure can lead to boiling at lower temperatures, which complicates the understanding of EVP in practical scenarios.
  • A thought experiment involving a sealed container is presented, where the dynamics of evaporation and boiling are discussed in relation to pressure changes.
  • Participants differentiate between evaporation and boiling, noting that boiling occurs when external pressure equals EVP, allowing vaporization from within the liquid mass.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of "increased likelihood" regarding saturation states and how pressure changes might influence the rate at which saturation is reached.
  • Some participants express confusion about the implications of pressure on the processes of evaporation and boiling, questioning whether lower pressure increases the rate of reaching saturation.
  • It is noted that saturation will occur regardless of temperature in a sealed container, provided there is sufficient water present.
  • Concerns are raised about whether the effects of pressure changes apply only at boiling point or if they have a scaled effect at pressures below boiling.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between pressure, EVP, and RH. While some agree that EVP is temperature-dependent, others contest the implications of pressure on the rate of reaching saturation and the dynamics of boiling versus evaporation. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of definitions and distinctions between evaporation and boiling, as well as the conditions under which saturation occurs. There are unresolved questions regarding the influence of pressure on partial pressures and the dynamics of vaporization prior to boiling.

Elquery
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TL;DR
Does atmospheric pressure affect the equilibrium vapor pressure of water vapor? What about partial pressure, and what about relative humidity?
I'm wondering if I'm on the right track and if anyone is willing to steer me on if not:

Equilibrium vapor pressure (EVP—also referred to as saturation vapor pressure) is dependent only on temperature. Outside pressure has no bearing.
Now, of course, with lower external pressure (atmospheric), water will boil at lower temperatures. This led me to initially believe that EVP is affected by pressure. At the extreme, a vacuum would cause total and near instantaneous phase transition to vapor. Therefore it must be that the EVP has been severely lowered.

Maybe not. The EVP of water hasn't changed, it's simply that the outside pressure has been reduced to—or below—that pressure.

Thought experiment: Imagine a sealed container with water in it. Then imagine pulling a perfect vacuum in that container. If the container is large enough, all water will evaporate (boil) and fill the space with water vapor at some pressure below the EVP (for that temperature). If the container is small enough, however, evaporation can cause the space to reach the EVP and this vapor pressure will cause equilibrium to be reached while some liquid water remains. So it would essentially boil until the vacuum was filled by enough vapor to reach EVP, at which point any remaining liquid water would stay as such.

Hopefully I'm sort of on track.
One final question assuming the above is true: Does pressure affect relative humidity?
Relative humidity is the partial vapor pressure / EVP. And if it's true that pressure does not affect EVP, then the only way it would is if it affects partial pressure. The factors that affect partial pressure elude me. It seems like its just a function of a dynamic state that hasn't reached equilibrium.

At the extreme, it would seem that if you lower the pressure enough to cause boiling, you would have increased the likelihood of a fully saturated state. If this extreme applies on a scale prior to boiling point, then lowering pressure would be likely to increase partial pressures and hence RH at a given temperature. Not sure about this...
 
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Elquery said:
...water will evaporate (boil)
Evaporation and boiling are not the same thing. Please state your understanding of what each those terms mean. Recognizing the difference will probably answer your question...
Does pressure affect relative humidity?
No.
At the extreme, it would seem that if you lower the pressure enough to cause boiling, you would have increased the likelihood of a fully saturated state.
Do any of these processes depend on "increased likelihood"? What does that even mean?
 
Elquery said:
What about partial pressure, and what about relative humidity?

They are strictly related, so it is in fact a single question, not two.
 
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Elquery said:
At the extreme, it would seem that if you lower the pressure enough to cause boiling, you would have increased the likelihood of a fully saturated state.

In a sealed container you're going to end up with saturation no matter the temperature and regardless of the presence of air. The term "saturated air" is sort of confusing in that the air itself is irrelevant with respect to the amount of water vapor present.
 
russ_watters said:
Evaporation and boiling are not the same thing. Please state your understanding of what each those terms mean. Recognizing the difference will probably answer your question...

Let's see. I think evaporation is the process of water molecules leaving the liquid state and entering the gas state. At equilibrium, the same amount will leave that re-enter. It can be viewed statistically. It occurs at the boundary.

Boiling point is the temperature at which the 'external pressure' (not sure if that's the best language to use) on the system equals the EVP. So at atmospheric 'external pressure', the temperature is around 100C. When this happens, water molecules entering the vapor state can do so from within the liquid mass (bubbles can form), thereby eliminating the restriction that it occur at the boundary.

I guess the only fundamental difference I see is that one is restricted to boundary, the other become a free for all. But in both cases, it has to do with available energy for molecules to escape the forces of attraction (cohesion) of the liquid state. It simply takes less energy when external pressure is reduced (at least when reduced to the point of boiling).

Do any of these processes depend on "increased likelihood"? What does that even mean?

Good question. This may be the source of my confusion. I suppose I view a lowering of pressure (at least when to the point that boiling occurs) as reducing the amount of time needed for saturation to occur. My reasoning being that the reaction is no longer restricted to the boundaries. So presumably the transition will occur much more rapidly. Is this wrongheaded?

I can't work out whether this would apply with pressure reductions prior to this threshold of boiling point. Since it's still restricted to boundary interactions, it seems perhaps not.
 
Last edited:
JT Smith said:
In a sealed container you're going to end up with saturation no matter the temperature and regardless of the presence of air. The term "saturated air" is sort of confusing in that the air itself is irrelevant with respect to the amount of water vapor present.

Yes, I think Russ helped me work out that I actually mean increased the rate that EVP (saturation) will be reached. The EVP will remain the same regardless of air (dependent only on temperature), but the rate at which EVP will be reached would seem to be increased if a liquid is 'boiling.' Is this still off?

Taking the chance that I'm right, my next question becomes: is this only true at the critical point of boiling, or is there a scaled effect with pressure changes prior to boiling.
 
JT Smith said:
In a sealed container you're going to end up with saturation no matter the temperature and regardless of the presence of air.

Only if there is enough water.
 
Elquery said:
Taking the chance that I'm right, my next question becomes: is this only true at the critical point of boiling, or is there a scaled effect with pressure changes prior to boiling.

It's generally faster to boil because vaporization isn't constrained to the surface. So now you want to know if the lower the pressure the faster the boil? I wouldn't think so but one can often dream up special cases. For example, if you have a very smooth vessel and minimal contaminants then for a given temperature boiling won't happen when the pressure is just below the boiling point but will at some lower pressure. That's kind of a picky case though. Similarly, you'll never reach saturation if there isn't enough water or enough heat to drive vaporization far enough.
 

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