Does Religon Show Weakness in Society

[Moses]

Well, TENYEARS, I do totally agree with you that if we NEED religion it means we are WEAK, YES, but this apply to all humans, even athiests are WEAK in ths case...imagin how all of us are weak that we need food, drink, [religion?]..etc I totallly agree if you took the question from this angle,

However, we here took the Q from the point which is : Is a sociecty weak if it has religion running in the society? [I will not discuess in this pot about that]

I will clarify more the way we saw the Q by mentioning it in the opposite way: If the society does not have a religion going in it, is it a sign that it is strong?

The way you see the Q and you answer upon it i totally agree about it [ agree about the YES] I will found it odd if somebody will disagree from the members here

 

[TENYEARS]

could you please restate this ... I think I am getting what you are saying but I want to make sure I have what you meant correct.

Tom if I explain it I join science and religion and if I do not maybe you will understand them. If so god help you.

 

[TENYEARS]

TenYears, I understand what you are saying ,except, which God do you believe in? Has this God left any words for Mankind, like the Bible. the Koran or anything else? Or is he but a vision, a pantheistic being that you with your own eyes, and only yours, can see inside of your surroundings?

Thallium, I do not believe in god. I saw god and my god is the god which is only in one place and that is the place we all need to look. When we look in that place will you be able to find a place where god is not? My vision was not of a relative object but of a mind of which I was part of that extended beyond my skin. There was a day when I witnessed the very facet of creation itself. I was very very young, but that experience was I suppose one of the most profound. I am just a normal person When you read words of another you see the compression of sometimes a lifetime of thought and yet on a day to day experience we trudge forward doing what we need to do. There is no eternal utopia no savior and yet there is no external pain but there is an eternal and that is fair but most of all that is reality. In someways reality itself seems uncomprenshible and yet what is even more so which people will one day understand is that the present day view is even more logically incomprehensible.

 

[TENYEARS]

Well, TENYEARS, I do totally agree with you that if we NEED religion it means we are WEAK, YES, but this apply to all humans, even athiests are WEAK in ths case.

Lol I was going to post that myself about athiests. Belief in any form is weakness for true strength which is not really strength is not believing and not deciding. It is clearing away and waiting until the pressure from the void created by a desire to see opens us to the reality that is. Honesty and the desire to understand will pave the way for anyone.

Happy Thanksgiving to all even if you do not celebrate. May you find truth in today and all that you see.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

 

[misogynisticfeminist]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

I don't believe that there's such a thing as "no belief". Belief dominates our lives in one way or another. Even the disbelief of a supreme diety still constitutes a belief.

And belief in the "truth", my, sounds a little like a preacher.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

I wasn't referring to religion with truth... sorry. I meant for example something like a person who believes the Earth is a cube versus someone who believes the Earth is an oblate spheroid. I believe that latter and i can back it up with scientific data... i believe in the truth... In religon it is impossible to ahve truth currently...

infact does anyone ever think that religon will be able to be disproved...

 

[Moses]

Tom McCurdy,
i think that religion could be disproved, and could be proved as well...

Simply, if X religion is from God, and that X religion shown a proof that it is from God, thus it is from God.

Now we have reached the bottom question of accepting religion according to me: Using mind ONLY, can that X religion supprot its claim that it is from God, i.e a "proper correct" religion? If it does, thus it is from God and it is proofed in this way, and vise versa.

In this way, I do have a religion, and after a really, really indepth analysis i chose mine [it is not our topic here what is my religion, i guess!] and in the same way i disprove other religions, even the level of disproving that i conclude was different from one rleiiogn to another

[i.e some i conclude that they are absolutely or vast majority not from God. some i can clearly see that their origin are from God but then people changed it so these religions become "out of the track", and the one i had i conclude it is form God, even many people did mistakes and put their own issues while practising it which it is totally wrong, but the pure true info still there for anyone to pick easily...]

An important issue to notify, the proofs that i found them valid are by no means less than the proof you know to believe that the Earth is as what you believe... [imean not less in strength]

 

[Tom McCurdy]

proving religon

proving religon indeed is possible...


if all of a sudden all the christians disappear... **** I guess I was wrong.
more to come... out of time

 

[Tom McCurdy]

th3 point is that religon is weakness... its humans comming up with ways to control others and to explain what otherwise can't be explained.

 

[Impossible?]

no, it provides comfort, although it is misunderstood

 

[TENYEARS]

Tom, I tend to disagree with you on relgion in terms of the religion defining what they do not understand in terms of relgious experience or actual reality. The symbolism many times is created because it defines a deeper understanding than hard cold discrete facts. For example if I were blind how would you describe the word blue to me. What it means. Maybe I would place a piece of ice in your hands. That is how relgion is. It attempts to show what is out of the experience of another something which approximates something simliar. To pave a way for that thought to flow. I tell you these things are real for I have experienced them and have no doubt yet to hear my words is just belief one way or another unless one experiences them for one self. This is what makes the real part of religion, much like the real part of science. There are those of religion who do not understand like there are those of science. They are one and the same. The experience of truth in science is like a relgious experience. When I discovered what gravity and matter were on that fateful day I discovered not only the greatest facet of science, but I lived through what some would define as a reglious experience for two days. I will give you a hint, it was what relgion describes as the living water. This is a physical experience in a very subtle form and is part of the complete reality all of humanity will one day understand.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

no, it provides comfort, although it is misunderstood

in what way do you feel its misunderstood?

 

[Moses]

proving religon indeed is possible...


if all of a sudden all the christians disappear... **** I guess I was wrong.
more to come... out of time

Sorry Tom McCurdy, i did not get your point completely,

Still, as a comment which it may not be in its place, when we talk abuot religion, i guess it is not wise to limit our discussion to Christianity, never means if the "technological most advanced" countries has Christianty as the most spread religion there that christianty IS the religion, simply NO..

Personally, I believe that Jesus was from God, and he is not God, and he brought a strenght to the society, but when the Roman Empire change Christianity to become waht the Emperor want [e.g Jesus is God, Trinity, mixing with some pagans issues...etc] its becomes not the religion of Jesus anymore even the basic origin of Christianty before that change was from there [I know, we are not discuessing Christianity here..but i am just giving an example] and this change which made Christianty weaker, and thus make it weakining the society [a good example is the Church dictatorship in the Mideaval ages] even the original part which remained among the changes ones were actually making a strong point in society [i.e love your neighbour, love you God, do not kill...etc]

 

[TENYEARS]

How is belief in the truth weakness. If you have no belief that would in some cases show more weakness than a false belief.

No belief means I do not know and I will attempt to understand what is but will not settle for belief. It means I will strive to understand until I do understand the truth and nothing less than the truth. Truth is an experience. The greatest human achievements seen and unseen are born from this state. Belief in truth will not change humanity or save our planet or our future. Humanity can only be saved by it's understanding/experience of the truth.

The weakness of belief in the truth means I follow because I do not experience. If I experience what is to follow? I blaze my own path before the truth that is. I find it in every step of my existence. Science/Religion one in the same. How many in science if not at a minimum the greater majority do not understand the very foundation of physics itself. Matter/Gravity. How can humans live their lives and not know what they are, what they are made of, where they came from and where they are going? How can one not need to know this? Live your whole life and not know? No not me. I do not condemn anyone for not knowing for at one time in our existence we were all there and yet I only look to that which I am attached. That is this planet the people that surround me and our paths into the future. When I think of that it motivates me to speak these words.

"He that find the spirt within him go no more out." Humanity should think over these words for they speak of it's destiny.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

what is your truth tenyears... and how will understanding it save our planet or future. Belief in truth is still belief no matter how defineed.

Also on Matter/Gravity... you claim that understanding it has changed you, how can you understand something that no one truly understands...

Do you know the existence of the graviton... is matter really made up of strings viberating in 11 different dimensions. Your truth is what I consider belief... for you have no way of knowing its truth. Beliving in truth is still believing.

by the way do you use a language translator when posting?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Religion is a way of explaining things, a way of ordering the world as it seems best. That step impetus is progress from unknown/chaos to understanding. True, it is not complete truth, but it is the sign of intelligence and logic. I would say, that in the realm of abstracts, religion offers a very helpful and clear way of reasoning.

For example: Concerning right behavior, Christianity offers the belief that the incorrect or negative action is to sin (in Greek) is simply missing the mark. Now, that would be an acceptable place to start. If we postulate that all humans want and intend to make progress (vague and varied as we may understand it as individuals), then what I said about sin would be a corollary of sorts. Next, Christianity offers tangible imagery as representations for certain states of being. If you sin, you are missing the mark and somehow ignorant of what you must do to achieve your goal, and thus are in the dark/in hell and lost. Now, really if you are sinning and are not aware of it and think you are doing fine, then how will you know what the right action is? Just as in Socrate's Cave Metaphor, the people were unaware that they were seeing shadows in place of truth.

Where religion tries to make tangible these abstracts, we run into problems. But as far as creating a structure for progress, religion has the right idea. I think that in itself shows strength.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

Religion is a way of explaining things, a way of ordering the world as it seems best. That step impetus is progress from unknown/chaos to understanding. True, it is not complete truth, but it is the sign of intelligence and logic. I would say, that in the realm of abstracts, religion offers a very helpful and clear way of reasoning.


Where religion tries to make tangible these abstracts, we run into problems. But as far as creating a structure for progress, religion has the right idea. I think that in itself shows strength.

It is the way that religon explains things that shows weakness. True religon does try to explain things, and in effect this means that people have actually gone through the thought process to ponder about their world and universe which does show intelligence, but the answer they come up with shows the weakness. Religon could be viewed as a step from moving away from a world of unknown and chaos, but it is a step in the wrong direction. Religon attempts to come up with ways to get around the problems of our world. How did the universe start? Many religons offer answers to this question. However the weakness is in the answer. They completely avoid answering the question by comming up with stories. Religon is a step from science which is a step from truth. Many religons describe people being created from clay or straw, how does that compare to our understanding of the human body today? What religon predicted atoms? In truth most religons prevent the growth of human knowledge. In providing answers to questions, the make it seem that the answer has already been found, however in many cases this is not true. Remeber what happened to those who first postulated that the Earth was not the center of the universe?

Religon prevents any stucture from happening that could help the growth of human intelligence. In reality religon really is a weakness, a sign that us as humans are still in a relitivly primitive state of being. Eventually we willl know ennough about our universe to no longer need religon, when we reach this point religion will no longer be needed to be a crutch for people to fall back on. If people can accept the universe, they can be content, and in being content they will find happyness.

 

[TENYEARS]

what is your truth tenyears... and how will understanding it save our planet or future. Belief in truth is still belief no matter how defineed.

Also on Matter/Gravity... you claim that understanding it has changed you, how can you understand something that no one truly understands...

Do you know the existence of the graviton... is matter really made up of strings viberating in 11 different dimensions. Your truth is what I consider belief... for you have no way of knowing its truth. Beliving in truth is still believing.

by the way do you use a language translator when posting?

lol, like I said I do not believe I have been a witness to truth. There is no belief.

I will never say that I understand something that no one truly understands for there have been those in the past, those of the present and those who will be who all understand what I understand. It is part of being human to be able to answer this, to see this. Science is a burocracy of those who want to make names for themselves and to make their mark on the world. It is what holds us back from acknowlging the truth as a fact(still an object to existence to most). I do understand that which the world is made. There is no doubt because it is experience itself. I was a witness to that which science can only assume.

The embarassing thing is those in science who speak of things do not comprehend the implications of what they present. This is not to their inability but to their disinterest in the very thing which they do. They are afraid to look out into the unknown for what they might find. Hide little rabbits. I am not being mean, it is only what is. Not wrong not right only cause and effect. The effect, the effect I will not look anymore.

 

[CharlesP]

Feeble minds

Religion is indeed a sign of a feeble mind. To understand what this means and to predict what it means just remember Easter Island.
They built huge statues to their gods to bribe them into producing a good harvest. As the resources were depleted by overpopulation they built more and more larger statues. Finally when the food crisis reached the starvation point they realized that the statues were to the wrong god and tore them all down. Unfortunately this also failed but by then most of them had died.
I expect the same will be true as the USA becomes more religious and fundamentalist. Mandatory prayer in all schools, loyalty oaths and killing of all gays and atheists will have to occur to appease jesus as the oil runs out. Then when that doesn't work, jews, buddists and all minorities will have to go. Finally that will fail too but by then there will be few Americans left.

 

[TENYEARS]

There has never been such thing as a feeble mind in the history of all time. In order to know this you would have to understand what intelligence is. The question is did they really starve at easter island? Was it not on the ocean? Are there not fish? I am not satisfied with an scientists review of what happened, but I would be interested in the facts.

People who are hungry for power distort the symbolism of truth for their own gain. Hilter was one. You are correct of what will happen to some degree the question is will it be out of truth or human nature. I think human nature. If religion was not here they would use something else. So is it religon that causes these affects or is it the unconcous existence of humanity as a whole? It is not that man cannot understand, it is that what? Tell me the what and walk free. Who can tell me the what? Why do humans not understand the truth. There is only one thing and one thing alone. The answer is so amazing and so simple your mind will shatter when it hits you. Where will you be when it does?

 

[CharlesP]

There has never been such thing as a feeble mind in the history of all time.

You need to go see the folks in a nursing home. Then go visit all the churches.

In order to know this you would have to understand what intelligence is. The question is did they really starve at easter island? Was it not on the ocean? Are there not fish? I am not satisfied with an scientists review of what happened, but I would be interested in the facts.

They depleted the fish, like everything else. The population shrank from 10,000 to 300.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

TEn years you mentioned if religon was not there they would use something else [people] what is it that they would use. Do you feel that people will ever be able to evolve beyond this need to have religon or ... whatever you want to call it.

 

[TENYEARS]

You need to go see the folks in a nursing home. Then go visit all the churches.


They depleted the fish, like everything else. The population shrank from 10,000 to 300.

The oceans were rich and abundant at that time. Hell the oceans were fairly rich and abundant 100 years ago anything beyond that they were thriving. Fish travel in schools any many of the large fish could feed a few familys for a month. There were also other things to eat. Did you ever think it was potentially a disease or a type of diffiency causes by natural causes or a large hurricane or tropical storm which desimated the Island. There are so many potential possibilities. The facts create are pieces of a puzzle of which humans like to fill in the missing spots. This creates a possibility but not an actuality. They take the probability and make it a bandwagon and everyone jumps on. This to me is no different than the analysis of religion.

The poeple of nursing homes are not of feabile mind. The question is where are their minds.

 

[Tom McCurdy]

People can be feeble minded, intelligence is something impossible to generalize. There are girls in my school who don't know the sun is a star rather than a planet, their minds are not able to learn at rates of others. When you compare this intellect with say Einstein, then indeed their mind is feeble as is their intelligence.

 

[TENYEARS]

TEn years you mentioned if religon was not there they would use something else [people] what is it that they would use. Do you feel that people will ever be able to evolve beyond this need to have religon or ... whatever you want to call it.

Yes they will. Humanity will reach a state which science and facets of relgion will blend into one. For science will prove the existence of not only precogniction but god. Lol The scientists will fall back on their heals and the relgious will be angry for what science will attempt to take over. There will be great turmoil for those who will deny on both sides. There will also be those in the middle are from both sides they will be in utter amazement of the whole thing.

Religion is also this: A social exchange in a community. When gathered together in a place to be quite together or to listen to the silence or a good sermon of our human nature and to think in a time when some are so busy with there lives to do so. In one church it was to listen to the voice what had to be angel for her voice was that way. Maybe there is hope that the people can sing in a single voice for humanity itself. Who knows. Don't look at the relgion, look at the truth that exists within it. Discard the rest. Are you one of those who says an album is awsome when it absolutely sucks becasuse there is only one or two good songs on it. Look at it for what it is and take what is good and leave what is not true. If truth is your interest, then follow your instincts and you will be brought before truth.

Not to end on a negative note but Hitler used Nieche. He took his words out of context and exploited them. He placed all of Germany as the genetically choosen race. Not.. lol All races have facets of genetic make up which make them compatible with their environment. The mountain people of the Andes, the Eskimos, etc.. All have traits to make them compatible. Was this not science, a warped Darwinism which almost took over the world?

 

[TENYEARS]

People can be feeble minded, intelligence is something impossible to generalize. There are girls in my school who don't know the sun is a star rather than a planet, their minds are not able to learn at rates of others. When you compare this intellect with say Einstein, then indeed their mind is feeble as is their intelligence.

Don't be so judgemental. Watch the original planet of the apes movie sometimes. There is a scene where Charlton Heston is being questioned of Ape Law to prove his intelliegence and then tell me what you think. Do you think that it is not that their minds are capable or is it that their interests lie elsewhere? If you place others below you there must also be those above. Place no one above or below for that is the nature of truth. Do you know where real true compassion comes from? It is not relgion, it is absolute truth and understanding. In this state you see not only what is but the pain of others. Judge not but see and look deeply and you will also know them. In knowing them you will like them and understand how it came to be. In that understanding will you judge? We judge when we do not understand or else what is to judge?

 

[0TheSwerve0]

Amen and will you please marry me :!)

 

[Akihiro]

TENYEARS, you used lots of big words and also sentences that do not have any link between each of them in their content. In other words, your paragraphs do not make any sense. One should never confuse his opponents just to let yourself to have the last say. Your aguments are also, no offense, mostly based on false statements.

The natives of Easter Isalnds indeed underwent mass starvation. Click here:

http://www.netaxs.com/~trance/rapanui.html

The population of Easter Island reached its peak at perhaps more than 10,000, far exceeding the capabilities of the small island's ecosystem. Resources became scarce, and the once lush palm forests were destroyed - cleared for agriculture and moving the massive stone Moai. In this regard, Easter Island has become, for many, a metaphor for ecological disaster.

And would their supposed Gods allow something like this to happen to their worshippers?

Thereafter, a thriving and advanced social order began to decline into bloody civil war and, evidently, cannibalism.

Contacts with western "civilization" proved even more disastrous for the island population which, through slavery and disease, had decreased to approximately 111 by the turn of the century.

 

[Akihiro]

One must be aware of the definition of the word religion to make this dicussion (not argument) cruising on the right track.

Defintion of 'religion' by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition: "Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe."

For example: Concerning right behavior, Christianity offers the belief that the incorrect or negative action is to sin (in Greek) is simply missing the mark. Now, that would be an acceptable place to start. If we postulate that all humans want and intend to make progress (vague and varied as we may understand it as individuals), then what I said about sin would be a corollary of sorts. Next, Christianity offers tangible imagery as representations for certain states of being. If you sin, you are missing the mark and somehow ignorant of what you must do to achieve your goal, and thus are in the dark/in hell and lost. Now, really if you are sinning and are not aware of it and think you are doing fine, then how will you know what the right action is? Just as in Socrate's Cave Metaphor, the people were unaware that they were seeing shadows in place of truth.

We don't have to force ourselves to believe in religion just to avoid sinning. (I've also met plenty of Christians who sin without guilt) Besides, there is a disproportionately smaller percentage of atheists in jail than the percentage of atheists in that particular country. Poets can also offer more romantic and expressive representations of certain states of being too. Besides, our mum, dad, teachers, as well as experience with human relationships teaches us what that is right and wrong too.

Furthermore, be aware of what religions are - the worship of a higher being or higher beings. That's the core principle, the rest are secondary.