Does the metric really represent intrinsic spacetime in plain English?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of the metric in the context of intrinsic spacetime, particularly focusing on its interpretation in plain English. Participants explore whether the metric can be considered truly intrinsic or if it relies on extrinsic elements, using examples such as a 2D curved surface and the behavior of strings.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the metric can be considered intrinsic, arguing that it describes the behavior of a string relative to the surface, suggesting that the string is extrinsic.
  • Another participant asserts that the metric measures lengths as defined within the surface itself, claiming it is very intrinsic.
  • A different viewpoint challenges the idea that the metric is intrinsic by stating that it cannot be based solely on the number of atoms between points on the surface, especially in scenarios like an expanding balloon.
  • There is a reiteration of the initial claim that the metric describes arc-length between points on the surface, implying that the previous arguments may not be relevant.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the intrinsic nature of the metric, with some asserting it is intrinsic while others argue it is influenced by extrinsic factors. The discussion remains unresolved with competing views presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific scenarios, such as the behavior of a string and the implications of an expanding balloon, which may introduce limitations in their arguments regarding the metric's intrinsic properties.

atyy
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Does the metric really represent "intrinsic" spacetime in plain English?

Does the metric really represent "intrinsic" spacetime in plain English? For a 2D curved surface, the metric, although intrinsic as a mathematical term, doesn't seem to me intrinsic in plain English - it describes the behaviour of the length of a string relative to the surface - and I would consider the string not to be part of the surface, and extrinsic in plain English. This makes more sense to me, since it follows that like the string, the metric is an additional structure; also, since a string curves in 2 directions, the metric should take 2 vectors to define a length. In this view, then there is also some physics in the metric, since we have to specify that we use a string, and not eg. chewing gum. Of course, if we think about it this way, there is also something intrinsic to the metric, since it contains information about the elasticity of the surface relative to the string. Nonetheless, the metric is not completely intrinsic since the string is needed. Furthermore, if the metric represents a string, then we are naturally led to ask - if 4D spacetime has a metric, what is the corresponding 4D string? - to which it seems plausible to say trajectories of particles or light - which prevents one from even thinking of a 'hole argument'.
 
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No, that is not true. The metric measures the length of a surface as measured in that surface. It is very "intrinsic".
 


Measured in that surface, but by what? Definitely not the number of atoms between two points in the surface. If that were the case, then the metric would not change in an expanding balloon, since the expansion doesn't change the number of atoms between those two points. It has to be the spacing of atoms in a piece of string that is not part of the surface.
 


atyy said:
Does the metric really represent "intrinsic" spacetime in plain English? For a 2D curved surface, the metric, although intrinsic as a mathematical term, doesn't seem to me intrinsic in plain English - it describes the behaviour of the length of a string relative to the surface

No it doesn't. It describes the arc-length between two points in the surface.

Hence the rest of your question is moot...
 

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