Doubt regarding proof of Clausius Inequality.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Clausius Inequality and its implications in thermodynamics, particularly in relation to Carnot cycles and the work-energy relationship in thermodynamic systems. Participants explore the foundational aspects of the inequality, its proof, and the behavior of heat and work in thermodynamic cycles.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the interpretation of the Clausius Inequality, suggesting that it may not be provable as it is a fundamental axiom of thermodynamics.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of ideal reservoirs and their ability to maintain a constant state while heat is transferred, with some arguing that this is not strictly true.
  • Participants express confusion over why the equation ∑dW_i + ΔW <= 0 is used, questioning whether ΔW should be the only work that is impossible to achieve.
  • One participant emphasizes that for any thermodynamic cycle connected to a single reservoir, the cyclical work must be less than or equal to zero, which applies to the Carnot cycle as well.
  • There is a clarification about the Carnot engine's connection to two reservoirs and how this affects the work output, with some participants seeking definitions for the terms ΔW and dW_i.
  • Participants discuss the steps of the ideal Carnot cycle, highlighting the work done during isothermal and isentropic processes, and the distinction between positive and negative work.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of the Clausius Inequality or the implications of the work-energy relationship in thermodynamic cycles. Multiple competing views and uncertainties remain regarding the definitions and implications of the discussed concepts.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of work and heat transfer, as well as the assumptions made about ideal reservoirs and the nature of thermodynamic cycles. The mathematical steps and relationships presented are not fully resolved.

weezy
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I have attached two images from my textbook one of which is a diagram and the other a paragraph with which I am having problems. The last sentence mentions that due to violation of 2nd law we cannot convert all the heat to work in this thermodynamic cycle. However what is preventing the carnot cycles from doing work dW_i ? Shouldn't ΔW be the only work that is impossible to achieve by the machine? Why take ∑dW_i + ΔW <=0 and not just ΔW<=0?

I would also like to know that since at the end of one cycle reservoir the system returns to it's initial state and T loses some heat and if total work performed by that system is zero(for reversible case) then where does the heat go?
 

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Firstly I am not understanding your difficulty. But here I raise two points of views:
1. There cannot be any proof of Clausius inequality as it is the fundamental axiom in the theory of thermodynamics. One can only relate it to other popular statements of laws of thermodynamics.

2.The ideal reservoirs returning to its original state is also not true in the strictest possible sense because we can go on depositing heat or extracting heat from it and it remains in the same state, one does not know what does it mean totally but only one aspect we know its temperature does not change because of assumed infinite thermal capacity. That is why these heat transfers are considered reversible.
 
weezy said:
Shouldn't ΔW be the only work that is impossible to achieve by the machine? Why take ∑dW_i + ΔW <=0 and not just ΔW<=0?

No. The system undergoing a thermodynamic cycle is the Carnot cycle plus the other cycle. This is the system that appears to take heat from one reservoir and get work out without rejecting heat to another reservoir. Since for any thermodynamic cycle that is connected to only one reservoir the cyclical work must be less than or equal to zero, it must be so with this cycle too. The cyclical work involved for this cycle is the sum of the individual works outputs from anywhere in the system.

weezy said:
I would also like to know that since at the end of one cycle reservoir the system returns to it's initial state and T loses some heat and if total work performed by that system is zero(for reversible case) then where does the heat go?

If the net work performed by that system is zero, then what is the net heat transfer? Think about it in terms of the first law.
 
mfig said:
No. The system undergoing a thermodynamic cycle is the Carnot cycle plus the other cycle. This is the system that appears to take heat from one reservoir and get work out without rejecting heat to another reservoir. Since for any thermodynamic cycle that is connected to only one reservoir the cyclical work must be less than or equal to zero, it must be so with this cycle too. The cyclical work involved for this cycle is the sum of the individual works outputs from anywhere in the system.
If the net work performed by that system is zero, then what is the net heat transfer? Think about it in terms of the first law.
But the carnot engine which produces dW_i work is connected to 2 reservoirs. How would this work be negative or zero?
 
weezy said:
But the carnot engine which produces dW_i work is connected to 2 reservoirs. How would this work be negative or zero?

Was there more text defining what the quantities \Delta W and dW_i mean?

In the simplest ideal Carnot cycle, there are 4 steps:
  1. Isothermal expansion: Put a quantity of gas into a hot reservoir (temperature T_h) and let it expand.
  2. Isentropic expansion: Take it out of the reservoir and let it expand some more, extracting work from the gas. During this expansion, the temperature drops to T_c.
  3. Isothermal contraction: Put the gas into a cold reservoir (temperature T_c) and let it contract.
  4. Isentropic contraction: Take it out of the reservoir and force it to contract some more, putting work into the gas.
In steps 1 and 2, the gas is doing work, and in steps 3 and 4, work is being done on the gas (which is considered to be negative work done by the gas).

The work done by a gas is P dV. If the gas is expanding, then it is doing work, and this is a positive number. If the gas is contracting, then work is being done on the gas, and this quantity is a negative number.
 
weezy said:
But the carnot engine which produces dW_i work is connected to 2 reservoirs. How would this work be negative or zero?

It is not the Carnot engine that is considered in the equation you are asking about. It is the combined system, shown in red in the image below. For this system, would you agree that ##\Delta W+\Sigma dW_i \leq 0##? That is all that they are saying. Once you see this, you should be able to see that ##\Delta W \leq -\Sigma dW_i##.

Tu36uRk.png
 

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