How Does Diffraction Influence Shadows and Optical Observations?

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    Diffraction Pole
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the influence of diffraction on shadows and optical observations, particularly in the context of light behavior around obstacles such as poles. Participants explore the relationship between diffraction, shadow sharpness, and image aberration, as well as the implications for photography and telescopic observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how diffraction relates to the less sharp shadow of a pole, suggesting that air might play a role.
  • Another participant argues that diffraction is not the primary cause of shadow blurriness, attributing it instead to the increasing distance from the pole to the ground and the concept of penumbra.
  • It is noted that the angle subtended by the pole must be less than half a degree for no umbra to be observable, which is related to the Sun's angle.
  • Participants provide examples of genuine diffraction, such as light reflected on a CD and observing light bulbs with fingers to see diffraction patterns.
  • There is a discussion about why diffraction affects photography differently than telescope observations, with some suggesting that the contrast in scenes plays a significant role.
  • One participant requests clarification on the difference between penumbra and umbra, indicating a desire for deeper understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of diffraction in shadow formation and image aberration. While some agree that diffraction is a factor, others argue it is not the primary cause, leading to an unresolved discussion on the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various assumptions regarding angles, distances, and the conditions under which diffraction effects are observed. There is also a lack of consensus on the definitions and implications of penumbra and umbra.

Hak
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I have a couple of doubts about diffraction I'd like to clear up anyway

The Sun's shadow cast by a tall pole embedded in the ground is less sharp at the top... How is this related to diffraction? Is it due to the presence of air? On Halliday, Resnick, Krane textbook it also says that diffraction disturbs photography much less than a telescope observation... This is also not very clear to me.

And the most important doubt: they always talk about obstacles with dimensions 'comparable' with the wavelength of the incident light (or at any rate wave) to have observable diffractive effects. This also doesn't convince me much...
Thanks in advance.
 
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Diffraction is only one of the reasons for image aberration. In the case of the shadow thrown by a pole, diffraction is way down the list. The main reason for your blurring here is that the distance from pole to ground increases for higher parts of the pole. The fuzzy bit at the sides of the shadow are the Penumbra (Look that up) which gets wider, the further the distance from the pole to the ground. If you go far enough, there will be no actual shadow (Umbra) observable. This will be when the angle subtended by the pole is less than half a degree, which is the angle subtended by the Sun. Playing with fingers and a white wall in the Sun will show how this happens; shape shadows close in and fuzzy ones far out. (Bright Sun and no clouds or nearby white surfaces will give best results.) No diffraction at work here.

If you want to see genuine diffraction, look at light reflected on the surface of a CD. The different wavelengths of reflected light will emerge due to diffraction. Another really good experiment can be done if you look at a distant light bulb (focussing ON the bulb). Make an 'O' with thumb and a finger and (still focussing on the bulb) bring the join across the bulb you are looking at. Part finger and thumb by a tiny amount and you will see stripes appearing in the gap. Do not look at your finger.
Hak said:
diffraction disturbs photography much less than a telescope observation.
Not a universal rule but a valid comment.
That's because the scenes are different and angles involved are very small for many atronomical objects of interest. Resolving two stars is often limited by diffraction effects. The diffraction 'spikes' on Hubble pictures are seen due to very high contrast for very bright stars and the structure of the (Newtonian style) scope.. You still don't see them around dimmer stars. OTOH, most terrestrial scenes have less contrast and the diffraction doesn't show. But pictures of the Sun and bright lights often have diffraction patterns but the surrounding parts of the scene look fine. A greasy lens will ruin a good shot due to diffraction by the smear lines.
 
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sophiecentaur said:
Diffraction is only one of the reasons for image aberration. In the case of the shadow thrown by a pole, diffraction is way down the list. The main reason for your blurring here is that the distance from pole to ground increases for higher parts of the pole. The fuzzy bit at the sides of the shadow are the Penumbra (Look that up) which gets wider, the further the distance from the pole to the ground. If you go far enough, there will be no actual shadow (Umbra) observable. This will be when the angle subtended by the pole is less than half a degree, which is the angle subtended by the Sun. Playing with fingers and a white wall in the Sun will show how this happens; shape shadows close in and fuzzy ones far out. (Bright Sun and no clouds or nearby white surfaces will give best results.) No diffraction at work here.

If you want to see genuine diffraction, look at light reflected on the surface of a CD. The different wavelengths of reflected light will emerge due to diffraction. Another really good experiment can be done if you look at a distant light bulb (focussing ON the bulb). Make an 'O' with thumb and a finger and (still focussing on the bulb) bring the join across the bulb you are looking at. Part finger and thumb by a tiny amount and you will see stripes appearing in the gap. Do not look at your finger.

Not a universal rule but a valid comment.
That's because the scenes are different and angles involved are very small for many atronomical objects of interest. Resolving two stars is often limited by diffraction effects. The diffraction 'spikes' on Hubble pictures are seen due to very high contrast for very bright stars and the structure of the (Newtonian style) scope.. You still don't see them around dimmer stars. OTOH, most terrestrial scenes have less contrast and the diffraction doesn't show. But pictures of the Sun and bright lights often have diffraction patterns but the surrounding parts of the scene look fine. A greasy lens will ruin a good shot due to diffraction by the smear lines.
Thank you for your detailed answer. Could you elaborate on the difference between Penumbra and Umbra? Thank you very much.
 
Hak said:
Thank you for your detailed answer. Could you elaborate on the difference between Penumbra and Umbra? Thank you very much.
Did you look it up? Google will be chock full of pictures and I can't be bothered to draw one. You will see that, in the penumbra, some light gets past the edge.
 
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