E Field and Field Transformations

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    Field Transformations
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of electric fields in different inertial reference frames (IRFs) concerning a round, uncharged current loop. Participants explore the implications of transformations between these frames, particularly focusing on the presence of electric fields despite the loop having zero net charge.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a round, uncharged current loop at rest in IRF K, with negative charge circulating and positive charge remaining at rest, resulting in a nonzero B(y) field along the y-axis.
  • Another participant points out the lack of definition for K', which is later clarified as moving in the positive x direction of K at speed v, with synchronized clocks at the origin.
  • A participant suggests that the E' field in K' consists of both a conservative part and a non-conservative part, questioning the origin of the conservative field given the zero net charge of the current loop.
  • Further elaboration indicates that the loop's charge density does not vanish everywhere in K', and a reference to a simpler example is provided from a specific subsection of a text.
  • Another participant notes that uncharged current loops with velocity components in their plane become electrically polarized, drawing parallels to microscopic uncharged current loops in a spinning ceramic magnet that produce an electric field.
  • Discussion includes historical context, mentioning Einstein's interest in related "homopolar" effects and their implications for electromotive force (emf).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the explanation for the nonzero E(z)’ in K' or the implications of the electric field's conservative nature. Multiple competing views and hypotheses remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the definitions of terms and the implications of transformations between reference frames. The discussion also highlights the complexity of charge density behavior in different frames and the historical context of related phenomena.

GRDixon
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Note: in the following, parentheses denote "subscript". "G" denotes "gamma".

A round, uncharged current loop is at rest in the xz plane of IRF K. The loop is centered on the Origin. Negative charge circulates around the loop, positive charge remains at rest. There is a nonzero B(y) field at points on the y axis.

Viewed from IRF K’, at time t'=0 dB(y)’/dt’=0 at points on the y’ axis. Yet E(z)’=GvB(y) (where G stands for “gamma”). Since the net charge is zero in K’ (as it is in K), and since dB(y)’/dt’=0 at points on the y’axis, what explains the nonzero E(z)’?
 
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You haven't defined K'.
 
bcrowell said:
You haven't defined K'.

K' moves in the positive x direction of K at speed v. When the Origin clocks of K and K' coincide, they mutually read zero. The x/x' axes, etc., of the two frames are parallel.
 
GRDixon said:
K' moves in the positive x direction of K at speed v. When the Origin clocks of K and K' coincide, they mutually read zero. The x/x' axes, etc., of the two frames are parallel.

Here's a hint: the E' field in K' is the superposition of a conservative part (non-zero divergence) and a non-conservative part (non-zero curl). The non-zero E(z)' on the y' axis at time t'=0 is conservative. The question is, what engenders such a conservative field? The current loop has zero net charge.
 
GRDixon said:
Here's a hint: the E' field in K' is the superposition of a conservative part (non-zero divergence) and a non-conservative part (non-zero curl). The non-zero E(z)' on the y' axis at time t'=0 is conservative. The question is, what engenders such a conservative field? The current loop has zero net charge.

The loop's charge density doesn't vanish everywhere, as viewed in K'. For a simpler example, see subsection 4.2.4 of this: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/genrel/ch04/ch04.html#Section4.2 (the situation described in figure b).
 
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bcrowell said:
The loop's charge density doesn't vanish everywhere, as viewed in K'. For a simpler example, see subsection 4.2.4 of this: http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/genrel/ch04/ch04.html#Section4.2 (the situation described in figure b).

Good eye. In general, uncharged current loops that have an overall component of velocity in the plane of the loop are electrically polarized. It's interesting to model a ceramic, disc-shaped magnet as an array of microscopic uncharged current loops. When the magnet spins, the motion-associated tiny dipoles engender an electric field with a component toward/away from the parent magnet's rotation axis. I have read that even Einstein puzzled over some of the associated "homopolar" effects and their "seats of emf".
 
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