Empirical and Definitional Content of Newton's Laws

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the definitional and empirical aspects of Newton's laws of motion. It argues that the first two laws primarily define mass and force, lacking empirical predictive power until a specific force law is introduced, such as Newton's law of gravitation. The third law is seen as providing empirical content through its implications for momentum conservation, but only when an inertial frame is established. The conversation highlights differing interpretations of the laws, particularly regarding their testability and the necessity of additional definitions for mass and force. Ultimately, the consensus leans towards viewing Newton's laws as fundamentally definitional until further specifications are made.
  • #51
I think the important point is to realize that you need a spacetime model in order to be able to measure locations and times of events. On the other hand this spacetime model only makes physically sense when you are able to also operationally define the quantities appearing in the mathematical spacetime model. Then you can check the assumptions made in assuming the specific structure of the spacetime model for consistency.

History shows that indeed spacetime models can be empirically tested: In 1905 it became clear that the so far used Newtonian spacetime model has its limited range of applicability, i.e., it is an approximation for a more accurate spacetime model, Minkowski space, which itself is again an approximation since to describe gravity the within relativistic physics needed another spacetime model, and again it can be tested empirically, nowadays partially with very high accuracy (Pulsar Timing, gravitational wave forms,...).
 
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  • #52
Dale said:
Note that, in my case it isn’t “some posters” arguing, it comes from the literature. There is a lot of variety on this topic, which is an indication that it is mainly just a personal preference. So just find one that you like.

Your reference doesn't show how to find an intertial frame from Newton's law. It gives two approaches, first it says:

Newton's first law deals with non-interacting bodies. It says that the velocity of an isolated body, one removed from the influence of other bodies, is constant. This law defines a set of preferred coordinate frames,
inertial frames, as frames in which Newton's first law holds


This definition requires that we identify "non-interacting bodies". It then goes on to state that the best approximation to an inertial frame is the "fixed stars". Thus, your reference proves my point, i.e. it tells us that we need either 1) Prior knowledge of which frames are intertial (here, the "fixed stars") 2) Knowledge of some bodies that are "non-interacting", or 3) prior knowledge of the kinds of interactions that take place.

I believe you are either mirepresenting or misunderstanding your reference if you claim otherwise.
 
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  • #53
madness said:
Your reference doesn't show how to find an intertial frame from Newton's law...
This definition requires that we identify "non-interacting bodies".
And once you identified them, you can find the inertial frame from Newton's law.
 
  • #54
A.T. said:
And once you identified them, you can find the inertial frame from Newton's law.

Sure, that's what I wrote already in my post #46 that Dale had quoted. However they can't be identified using Newton's laws alone.
 
  • #55
madness said:
However they can't be identified using Newton's laws alone.
What is the meaning/significance of that "alone" part? Can you give an example of a useful physical law, that doesn't reference some other definitions/concepts. The whole point of general laws in physics is to relate/connect different aspects.
 
  • #56
A.T. said:
What is the meaning/significance of that "alone" part? Can you give an example of a useful physical law, that doesn't reference some other definitions/concepts. The whole point of general laws in physics is to relate/connect different aspects.

I have no problem with that. In post #46 I simply noted that there is a minimal set of propositions required to identify intertial frames and make testable predictions. I find it conceptually useful to identify the minimal set(s) required to uniquely specify and empirically measure the relevant physical components of the theory.
 
  • #57
madness said:
Sure, that's what I wrote already in my post #46 that Dale had quoted. However they can't be identified using Newton's laws alone.
I don’t see why this is an issue. Every definition requires that you use other definitions too. For this, it is assumed that you know how to identify non-interacting bodies and straight lines and constant velocities. Why are you getting your knickers in a twist about the non interacting bodies and not the other assumptions too? All of those things are part of the law by assumption, without being explicitly defined in it.

A definition is certainly allow to use and reference other concepts that are not defined in the definition. If you couldn’t use other concepts then every definition would be the size of the whole dictionary.

For straight lines you can order a protractor and a ruler from a supply catalog. Examples of straight lines can thus be provided. Similarly for non-interacting bodies, the distant fixed stars are considered an available example of such objects.
 
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  • #58
Dale said:
I don’t see why this is an issue. Every definition requires that you use other definitions too. For this, it is assumed that you know how to identify non-interacting bodies and straight lines and constant velocities. Why are you getting your knickers in a twist about the non interacting bodies and not the other assumptions too? All of those things are part of the law by assumption, without being explicitly defined in it.

A definition is certainly allow to use and reference other concepts that are not defined in the definition. If you couldn’t use other concepts then every definition would be the size of the whole dictionary.

For straight lines you can order a protractor and a ruler from a supply catalog. Examples of straight lines can thus be provided. Similarly for non-interacting bodies, the distant fixed stars are considered an available example of such objects.

I simply feel that it is conceptually helpful to lay out all of the necessary statements needed to operationally define the physical terms in the theory. In laying out Newton's laws and then implicitly using additional assumptions in an ad hoc manner we are obscuring the logical foundations of the theory we are using. Maybe others are happy to proceed in this way but it is not my preference.
 
  • #59
madness said:
Sure, that's what I wrote already in my post #46 that Dale had quoted. However they can't be identified using Newton's laws alone.
Yes you can, that's the achievement of Ludwig Lange mentioned some postings above.
 
  • #60
vanhees71 said:
Yes you can, that's the achievement of Ludwig Lange mentioned some postings above.

Lange's definition uses the term "free particle". His innovation is to use three of them to construct coordinates in three-dimensional space. We still need to know which particles are "free" before we can determine which coordinate systems are inertial.
 
  • #61
vanhees71 said:
We still need to know which particles are "free" before we can determine which coordinate systems are inertial.

Do we really need to know it or is it sufficient to assume it as a working hypotheses? That would imply that that the classification of a frame of reference as inertial or not is provisional as well but that shouldn't be a problem as long as everything remains consistent.
 
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  • #62
DrStupid said:
Do we really need to know it or is it sufficient to assume it as a working hypotheses? That would imply that that the classification of a frame of reference as inertial or not is provisional as well but that shouldn't be a problem as long as everything remains consistent.

If we take any N particles with arbitrary trajectories in some coordinate system, there should* be some transformation of coordinates such that in the new coordinate system each particle follows a straight line with constant velocity. Then we could call those "free" and declare that we have found an "inertial" coordinate system.

*I'm actually unsure of the conditions under which this is true! However I think it gets at the question of how we can operationally determine free particles or inertial frames given only trajectories of particles in one set of coordinates.
 
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  • #63
madness said:
If we take any N particles with arbitrary trajectories in some coordinate system, there should be some transformation of coordinates such that in the new coordinate system each particle follows a straight line with constant velocity. Then we could call those "free" and declare that we have found an "inertial" coordinate system.

If that always works - independent from the choice of particles and their trajectories - what's the problem? Otherwise you need to rethink the assumption that the particles are free.
 
  • #64
DrStupid said:
If that always works - independent from the choice of particles and their trajectories - what's the problem? Otherwise you need to rethink the assumption that the particles are free.

The problem is that we didn't know which particles were free or not. What if we have M free and N forced particles, but we don't know which are free or forced, rather we only have their trajectories. We can perform coordinate transformations which put the forced ones in straight lines and claim they are free.
 
  • #65
madness said:
We can perform coordinate transformations which put the forced ones in straight lines and claim they are free.

Again: If that always works, what's the problem?
 
  • #66
DrStupid said:
Again: If that always works, what's the problem?

The problem is that we may be able to trade off choices of force and inertial frames so that any frame can be called inertial if we choose the forces on the particles appropriately.
 
  • #67
madness said:
The problem is that we may be able to trade off choices of force and inertial frames so that any frame can be called inertial if we choose the forces on the particles appropriately.

I do not see the problem. We actually do that. In classical mechanics the trajectory of the falling apple is not a straight line and there is a net force acting on it while the trajectory of Newton, sitting unter the tree, is a straight line and there is no net force acting on him. In general relativity it is the other way around.
 
  • #68
Of course you have to assume that an inertial frame exists. Since you can operationally define an inertial frame only if you assume that "free particles" exist, this assumption is implied.
 
  • #69
madness said:
I simply feel that it is conceptually helpful to lay out all of the necessary statements needed to operationally define the physical terms in the theory. In laying out Newton's laws and then implicitly using additional assumptions in an ad hoc manner we are obscuring the logical foundations of the theory we are using. Maybe others are happy to proceed in this way but it is not my preference.
OK, so (sticking with the first law only for now) why are you focusing only on the "non-interacting bodies" part and not on the "constant velocity" part? Constant velocity is also not defined in the law but rather is assumed that you can determine if something is moving at constant velocity. There is conceptually no difference between the two. Why does "non-interacting bodies" set off your "ad hoc" and "obscuring logical foundations" alarms but "constant velocity" does not. From a logical standpoint they are not any different.

All systems of definitions (not merely in science, but in math and elsewhere too) inherently either are circular or refer to some undefined term. Science is a little better than most disciplines because a lot can be referred to physical measurement apparatus. E.g. "time is what is measured by a clock" so what is a clock? I don't define it, but instead I can give you instructions for building a clock, or I can give you a reference clock, or I can give you a catalog where you can order a clock. This is the same sort of thing.
 
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  • #70
Dale said:
OK, so (sticking with the first law only for now) why are you focusing only on the "non-interacting bodies" part and not on the "constant velocity" part? Constant velocity is also not defined in the law but rather is assumed that you can determine if something is moving at constant velocity. There is conceptually no difference between the two. Why does "non-interacting bodies" set off your "ad hoc" and "obscuring logical foundations" alarms but "constant velocity" does not. From a logical standpoint they are not any different.

I take trajectories to be measurable, i.e. position and its derivatives. Whether a particle is "non-interacting" cannot be measured directly, but only inferred from measurements of trajectories together with the definitions of the theory.
 
  • #71
madness said:
I take trajectories to be measurable, i.e. position and its derivatives. Whether a particle is "non-interacting" cannot be measured directly, but only inferred from measurements of trajectories together with the definitions of the theory.
Trajectories are only measurable because you accept the validity of the relevant measurement devices and because you refer the output of those devices to some geometrical theory. Without accepting those devices and theories the trajectories are not measurable either. There is really no in-principle difference between that and the distant fixed stars and Newton's laws.

You really should look into the Newton-Cartan approach. The more you write the more I think it would be satisfying to you. In that approach whether a particle is "non-interacting" can be measured directly using an accelerometer. In fact, it is a far more direct measurement than trajectories are.
 
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  • #72
Dale said:
Trajectories are only measurable because you accept the validity of the relevant measurement devices and because you refer the output of those devices to some geometrical theory. Without accepting those devices and theories the trajectories are not measurable either. There is really no in-principle difference between that and the distant fixed stars and Newton's laws.

I agree that there are some assumptions required to empirically measure position and velocity. I can also see how Newton's fixed stars can be taken a priori as a reference frame. But I don't see how the ability to identify "non-interacting" particles could be framed as a basic premise, unless we attribute that property to a well-known object like the sun that we can all agree on. How else would the theory allow us to find this object?

Dale said:
You really should look into the Newton-Cartan approach. The more you write the more I think it would be satisfying to you. In that approach whether a particle is "non-interacting" can be measured directly using an accelerometer. In fact, it is a far more direct measurement than trajectories are.

Perhaps I should. I'll try to find some time for that soon.
 
  • #73
madness said:
I agree that there are some assumptions required to empirically measure position and velocity. I can also see how Newton's fixed stars can be taken a priori as a reference frame. But I don't see how the ability to identify "non-interacting" particles could be framed as a basic premise, unless we attribute that property to a well-known object like the sun that we can all agree on. How else would the theory allow us to find this object?
If you allow the sun then why not the distant fixed stars?
 
  • #74
Dale said:
If you allow the sun then why not the distant fixed stars?

All of them or just one of them? It would be tricky to claim that they are all non-interacting, as we'd have to nonlinearly transform coordinates into a system where they all travel in straight lines at constant speeds.
 
  • #75
True, but of course also the functioning of the accelerometer needs to use the fundamental laws. At the end it's a question of consistency and the limits of accuracy you choose to achieve or are able to achieve. You cannot get out of this dilemma that you use the very laws to construct measurement devices you want to test using these devices. At the end it's a question of consistency whether a model like Newtonian mechanics is a valid model to describe the observed phenomena or not, and you cannot even start to measure anything without an assumption of such a model.

Indeed, without much thinking usually you start to use the Earth as a refrence body. Say you want to measure the laws of free fall (because it's clear that there's always the gravitational interaction of anybody with the Earth; the unavoidable gravitational interaction between the bodies can usually be neglected, but that's another issue, but it's also an issue of accuracy). So you take the Earth as the reference body and take a ruler to measure vertical distances ("vertical" defined as the direction of the gravitational force/acceleration, which we can assume as homogeneous for not too large spatial regions we perform our measurements in; from Newton's Law of gravity we know the relevant length scale here is of the order or the radius of the Earth; so in usual lecture-hall experiments it's safe to assume that the gravitational acceleration ##\vec{g}## is just a constant). Now you realize that anybody falls in a straight line along this ruler. You can measure distances with this ruler (say from the starting point of the falling body to the floor of your lab), because you assume (!) the validity of Euclidean geometry for the physical space.

Now you also need a clock. One way is of course to use a mathematical pendulum (or to be more accurate Huygens's isochronous pendulum with a body moving along a cylcloid to avoid a dependence on the amplitude). Newton's Laws (which are again assumed here!) lead to a measure of time due to the formula ##\omega=\sqrt{g/l}##, for which you only need to be able to measure the length ##l## of the pendulum. The value of ##g## is not so important, because you can take it as a constant around you lab, and you can simply define a measure of absolute time by taking the frequency of a certain standard length to define your unit of time. Of course you can now check the law for different pendulums by measuring the frequency as a function of ##l## using such a standard clock to compare the frequencies of these various pendulums.

Now we have established a measure of time. Now of course you can measure the trajectory of bodies as a function of the so quantified time ##t##. Of course, you'll then find with more or less accuracy, the assumption ##\vec{g}=\text{const}## confirmed when measuring freely falling bodies has a function of the height ##x=h-g t^2/2## (if you always start with 0 initial velocity).

As a next step you can also check the law for a body moving not only along the "vertical". If you neglect air resistance of course you get the law that velocity components of moving bodies perpendicular to the direction of ##\vec{g}## stay constant. This pretty much ensures you that taking the Earth as a reference body is a good approximation of an inertial frame, where of course you have to take into account the gravitational interaction between the observed bodies and the Earth.

There are of course a lot of assumptions and some math going into it like solving the equations for free(ly falling) bodies or a mathematical pendulum. Then you can make all kinds of measurements and check whether all this assumptions stay consistent with each other and in accordance with the predictions using Newtonian mechanics.

As stressed before, it's also a question at which accuracy you measure. Of course we all know that the Earth is not really a reference point to define an inertial frame. The Foucault pendulum experiment demonstrates that it is a rotating frame as the correct prediction of the precession of the pendulum's plane of oscillations assuming the corresponding corrections due to the inertial forces (here the Coriolis force is sufficient) expected in a uniformly rotating reference frame (i.e., the Earth rotation around its axis).

Also the assumption that the bodies are not mutually interacting is of course only an approximation, and indeed Cavendish managed to demonstrate Newton's universal gravitational law and to measure with some accuracy Newton's universal gratvitational constant with his experiment torsion balance using the mutual gravitational interactions of bodies (at an accuracy within about 1% compared to the modern value).

Of course, as an empirical science physics cannot be axiomatized. It's always an interplay between theoretical thoughts and the construction of measurement devices to make quantitative observations. The "natural laws" are always subject to tests and consistency checks with the underlying theoretical assumptions.

The history of physics shows that indeed adjustments to the very fundamental laws are happening, though in an amazingly slow rate. Newton's mechanics was consistent for around 200-300 years until the spacetime model finally turned out to be only an approximation, when in 1905 Einstein discovered special relativity and thus introduced the more comprehensive Minkowski-space spacetime model, which was consistent with a larger realm of phenomena, i.e., not it was consistent with both mechanics and electrodynamics. Just 10 years later the spacetime model had to be adjusted again, because it turned out that gravity could be most easily described by reinterpreting it as a curved spacetime manifold and at once unified the phenomenon of inertia and gravitational forces (though only in a local sense of course). Though General Relativity (GR) up to now stands to be highly accurate, it may well be that one day one needs even more accurate laws, and that's why GR is also tested with ever more accurate measurements as the advance of technology allows.
 
  • #76
vanhees71 said:
You cannot get out of this dilemma that you use the very laws to construct measurement devices you want to test using these devices.

One would hope that we could specify a set of measurement "primitives" along with a set of definitions that link those measurements to abstract (i.e., non-measurable) physical quantities, and then analyse that system to ascertain whether these physical quantities can be uniquely determined from measurements of the "primitives". In my case the primitives were chosen to be position and time, whereas the abstract quantities were force, intertial frame, mass etc. Ultimately, testing the theory can only be done on the basis of directly measurable quantities, in which case this debate about whether we can truly identify inertial frames and non-interacting bodies may become irrelevant from an observational perspective.
 
  • #77
madness said:
It would be tricky to claim that they are all non-interacting, as we'd have to nonlinearly transform coordinates into a system where they all travel in straight lines at constant speeds.

Or you just assume them to be at rest relative to each other. That's what Newton was sure of and it was sufficient within the accuracy of measurements that time. Today we know it is not the case but we could use the cosmic background radiation instead.
 
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  • #78
DrStupid said:
Or you just assume them to be at rest relative to each other. That's what Newton was sure of and it was sufficient within the accuracy of measurements that time. Today we know it is not the case but we could use the cosmic background radiation instead.

I'm not sure I get it. They appear to stay still in our frame of reference regardless of whether we are moving or accelerating. I can't see how to get an inertial frame from that.
 
  • #79
madness said:
All of them or just one of them? It would be tricky to claim that they are all non-interacting, as we'd have to nonlinearly transform coordinates into a system where they all travel in straight lines at constant speeds.
As long as you are working with time scales shorter than a few centuries they do travel in straight lines at constant speeds. And if you use the Newton-Cartan approach then they travel on geodesics at any time scale.

madness said:
They appear to stay still in our frame of reference regardless of whether we are moving or accelerating.
No, that definitely isn't true. If you are accelerating then the distant fixed stars appear to fall.
 
  • #80
Dale said:
No, that definitely isn't true. If you are accelerating then the distant fixed stars appear to fall.

If they were fixed they wouldn't fall. The relative speed and acceleration of a point at infinity would be zero for any linear motion. Perhaps you mean rotation?

Edit: I suppose I'm referring to changes in angle on the sky and size of the object, which is how I imagined it's motion would be inferred.
 
  • #81
madness said:
Lange's definition uses the term "free particle". His innovation is to use three of them to construct coordinates in three-dimensional space. We still need to know which particles are "free" before we can determine which coordinate systems are inertial.
We have rich history outside the context of Newton's laws where measures are taken to assure that particles are free from external influences.
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  • #82
madness said:
If they were fixed they wouldn't fall.
Yes, if they are fixed then you are using an inertial frame and they won’t fall.
 
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  • #83
jbriggs444 said:
We have rich history outside the context of Newton's laws where measures are taken to assure that particles are free from external influences.
View attachment 267641
Right, and this is done using prior knowledge or assumptions about the kinds of influences that occur on particles.
Dale said:
Yes, if they are fixed then you are using an inertial frame and they won’t fall.

They are approximately fixed because they are sufficiently distant, and this is true regardless of the linear acceleration we apply here on Earth (i.e., it's true even in what we would consider non-inertial frames).
 
  • #84
madness said:
this is true regardless of the linear acceleration we apply here on earth
No. If you use an accelerating frame they will not be fixed, they will be accelerating. That is what I already said was wrong above.
 
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  • #85
Dale said:
No. If you use an accelerating frame they will not be fixed, they will be accelerating. That is what I already said was wrong above.
Trivial example: an Earth centered rotating frame. Distant stars move in circles around us, not remaining fixed above an observer at rest in such a frame.
 
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  • #86
Ibix said:
Trivial example: an Earth centered rotating frame. Distant stars move in circles around us, not remaining fixed above an observer at rest in such a frame.

I said linear acceleration, not rotation. We can only measure the size and angle on the sky of each star, in which case stars at a sufficient distance are fixed regardless of any linear acceleration we apply here on earth.
 
  • #87
madness said:
However, once we finally posit a functional form for force, for example via Netwon's law of gravitation, it looks as though we have something empirically testable - that is, using measurements of acceleration, we can falsify the theory. So would it be correct to state that Newton's 3 laws are purely definitional, and that only with the additional specification of further laws defining the forces do they become testable? If so, can we claim that this choice of definitions is a good one, as opposed to some other choice?

The second law is the definition of a force, and is empty without further specifying a functional form for the force, such as the law of universal gravitation.
The first law can be seen as a special case of the second.
The third law specifies that forces have a certain symmetry in inertial frames. The third law does not hold for forces that can be defined in noninertial frames.
The choice of definitions is a good one by experience. Notably the third law fails in relativity, and has to be generalized to momentum conservation. Noether's theorem relates conservation laws and symmetries.
 
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  • #88
madness said:
I said linear acceleration, not rotation. We can only measure the size and angle on the sky of each star, in which case stars at a sufficient distance are fixed regardless of any linear acceleration we apply here on earth.
As the distance increases the measured angle decreases but the hypotenuse increases. If you work it out you will find that the measured linear acceleration of distant objects is independent of the distance. If you are using a non-inertial frame then the distant stars indeed fall, they do not stay fixed.
 
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  • #89
atyy said:
The second law is the definition of a force, and is empty without further specifying a functional form for the force, such as the law of universal gravitation.

No, it is not empty without force laws. If you have a frame of reference that you accept to be inertial (e.g. a locally free falling frame of reference) and there is a body with the mass m and the acceleration a then you do not need any force law to know that the force F=m·a is acting on this body. Together with the third law you also know that there must be a force acting on at least one other body and that the sum of all other forces is -m·a. That is way more than nothing.

It is the other way around: Force laws are empty without the laws of motion. The universal law of gravitation or any other force law don't tell you anything without the laws of motion and it would be impossible to derive force laws from expertimental observations without the laws of motion. The laws of motion are the basis that all force laws are standing on.

atyy said:
The third law does not hold for forces that can be defined in noninertial frames.

I would say that something that does not comply with the laws of motion (e.g. fictitious forces) is not a force. In that sense there can't be any forces that the third law doesn't hold for. But maybe this is a matter of taste. It seems even Newton himself was not happy with the restriction of the laws of motion to interactive forces.
 
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  • #90
Dale said:
As the distance increases the measured angle decreases but the hypotenuse increases.

And how do you measure the hypotenuse? Today it is is quite easy to measure even small accelerations of distant stars. But more than three centuries ago it was impossible. Thus the fixed stars were just a theoretical reference for an inertial frame without any practical relevance. I think this is what madness means.
 
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  • #91
Dale said:
As the distance increases the measured angle decreases but the hypotenuse increases. If you work it out you will find that the measured linear acceleration of distant objects is independent of the distance. If you are using a non-inertial frame then the distant stars indeed fall, they do not stay fixed.
Which angle? I was referring to their angle(s) in polar coordinates with Earth at the centre. Certainly this doesn't decrease as the distance from Earth increases. We can essentially only measure these two angles (azimuth and elevation). The acceleration of azimuth and elevation goes to zero as the distance of the object goes to infinity, even if we apply linear acceleration here on Earth. As DrStupid says, today we may be able to make more accurate measurements, but only insofar as the stars aren't sufficiently distance to be considered "fixed".
 
  • #92
madness said:
Which angle? I was referring to their angle(s) in polar coordinates with Earth at the centre. Certainly this doesn't decrease as the distance from Earth increases.
The angle subtended by their change in position over time. Yes, measured in polar coordinates with Earth in the center.

madness said:
The acceleration of azimuth and elevation goes to zero as the distance of the object goes to infinity
Yes, but the hypotenuse goes to infinity. Their product is constant and independent of the distance.
 
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  • #93
Dale said:
The angle subtended by their change in position over time. Yes, measured in polar coordinates with Earth in the center.

Yes, but the hypotenuse goes to infinity. Their product is constant and independent of the distance.

Sure, but you can't use observations of the night sky to construct an inertial frame using the coordinates of the distant "fixed" stars. Unless you use something like redshift to estimate their radial acceleration.
 
  • #94
madness said:
Sure, but you can't use observations of the night sky to construct an inertial frame using the coordinates of the distant "fixed" stars. Unless you use something like redshift to estimate their radial acceleration.
Yes, of course. You definitely need radial information also! If you don't have radial information then how could you apply Newton's laws? You wouldn't have velocities or accelerations but something quite different and not meaningful in the context of the laws.
 
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  • #95
Dale said:
Yes, of course. You definitely need radial information also! If you don't have radial information then how could you apply Newton's laws? You wouldn't have velocities or accelerations but something quite different and not meaningful in the context of the laws.

If we have access to detailed measurements of their three-dimensional motion then it ceases to make sense to refer them as being "distant" or "fixed". My impression was that the term "distant fixed stars" was intended to convey something about their usefulness for constructing an inertial frame in contrast to nearby moving objects.
 
  • #96
Today a much simpler frame of reference is the restframe of the cosmic microwave background, which you can establish using local observations. It's very accurately done already with, e.g., the CMBR satellites WMAP and Planck.
 
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  • #97
madness said:
If we have access to detailed measurements of their three-dimensional motion then it ceases to make sense to refer them as being "distant" or "fixed". My impression was that the term "distant fixed stars" was intended to convey something about their usefulness for constructing an inertial frame in contrast to nearby moving objects.
The term “distant fixed stars” is just a historical term. I agree that the term doesn’t make sense given modern astronomical knowledge. But for historical reasons it is still used when discussing constructing an inertial reference frame from astronomical objects. I believe that it was originally intended to refer to any actual stars (besides the sun), as opposed to planets and comets which were seen as wandering stars rather than fixed stars.
 
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  • #98
My goodness, this is a long chain of discussion! I haven't read it all but what I did read did not mention something which I always taught my intro students in the first class. Newtonian physics requires that we somehow understand intuitively without derivation four concepts: length, time, force, and mass. Force and mass are the tricky ones for students, force is a push or pull and mass somehow measures how much stuff you have. But suppose that we come up with an operational definition of mass--a kilogram is the mass of some standard chunk of stuff in some vault in Paris. And suppose we imagine that, although we do not have an operational definition of force, we can imagine having a machine (maybe a spring) which will reliably exert a constant force; then we can imagine doubling the force (two machines), tripling it, etc. Now we interact with the real world and do an experiment and easily discover that a∝F/m. We make this into an equation by adding a proportionality constant C which we can choose to be anything we want because F has not been defined. I choose C=1 and voila, F=ma and F is now operationally defined as the force which causes a 1 kg mass to have an acceleration of 1 m/s^2.
But, although that is what we like to do as physicists, it is not unique because F and m are not unrelated. The other way to approach the problem is to choose F rather than m to build our system of units. This is exactly what the Imperial units do, based on the pound, foot, second rather than kilogram, meter, second. Experiment still finds a∝F/m and I still choose C=1 and I still have the same Newton's second, m=a/F, and now a unit of mass is the mass which will experience an acceleration 1 ft/s^2 if pushed with 1 lb of force. (I realize that the more conventional Imperial unit for mass is the mass of a 1 lb weight, but then the second law is no longer F=ma. My goal here is to illustrate that one only needs three intuitive concepts to start physics, F and m not being independent.)
 
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  • #99
Well, yes, that's of course a good way to start, but we are discussing the problem that for doing all this you need to start with some spacetime model. It all starts with "kinematics" before it comes to "dynamics", and the issue with the Newtonian system of postulates was known from the very beginning, i.e., how to operationally determine either Newton's absolute space and absolute time (Newtonian point of view) or a set of bodies defining an arbitrary inertial reference frame (Leibnizian point of view), but we've discussed this above in great detail already.

Of course FAPP your approach is the right one and the only way to get started in physics.
 
  • #100
First, we must know that our textbook explanation of Newton's laws is our accepted approach which may be different in some ways to Newton's original; e.g. space and frame.
1) The Latin of the Principia is "Three Axioms" or accepted truths to start with, not laws as with testable laws.
2) mass - The Principia also assumed mass as a defined concept/axiom using the weighing scale and the pendulum to support its concept of mass.

The first law defines the inertial reference frame. A "perfect" orbiting space lab with no rotation with respect to the Earth is an inertial reference frame. An object can be made to stay still or move with uniform motion. The inertial reference frame is only an ideal and never testable to an absolute precision.

The second law is an axiom/definition of force. I think only within an inertial reference frame.

Third law: When one body exerts a force on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force equal in magnitude and opposite in direction on the first body.

The third law need no testing as it is a consequence of the 1st and 2nd law.
 
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