Energy cannot be created. Then where did it all come from?

  • #26
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He shouldn't. But a citizen worried about how large a segment of the US population believes things that have been scientifically falsified, and translates those false beliefs into counterproductive social and political actions, should.
Well let the citizen be a good citizen, but it has nothing to do with the science. And making such statements can be counter productive as you make these people feel defensive instead of educating them and helping them understand that science isn't out to destroy their faith. If you make an active effort to do so (thinking that is the problem), you will only push them away. I know, I taught science at a parochial school, and I am no longer employed there for that very reason even though I was sympathetic to many of their views. However, I am a hard liner when it comes to "just let the science speak for itself", and they didn't take too kindly to the that approach. Their having a very wooden/literalist view of the bible, and siding with/politicising and the christian right band wagon is the problem. A theological worldview isn't going to stand in the way of good science and good stewardship of our planet, but a further divide and a culture war will.

Chris
 
  • #27
ChrisVer
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Well the article I posted can generally be considered a public article... it contains some good elements because it contains extracts from the papers he reviewed and that was the only reason I got the power to send it in here...
In general I am not a US citizen o0) so I didn't mean to try and show "that way" over the other.
 
  • #28
PeterDonis
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Well let the citizen be a good citizen, but it has nothing to do with the science.
I disagree (good citizenship requires understanding how the world works, and science is key to that), but this is getting off topic, both for this thread and for this forum. A discussion of how science and social/political issues interact should really be in a separate thread in the General Discussion forum. If you want to start one, feel free to PM me a link to it.
 
  • #29
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I disagree (good citizenship requires understanding how the world works, and science is key to that), but this is getting off topic, both for this thread and for this forum. A discussion of how science and social/political issues interact should really be in a separate thread in the General Discussion forum. If you want to start one, feel free to PM me a link to it.
I think I wasn't clear in the section that you quoted from in the last post. I agree -- that one needs to know science to be a good citizen. I am a science teacher after all. I am just saying -- don't do science with an agenda. It may color the interpretation of your results. This is true on both sides of the isle. I will end it here. Sorry for hijacking the post.

Chris
 
  • #30
Someone asked me this question: If energy cannot be created then where did the Universe come from?
Are there any websites, papers or documents concerning this question, answer?
The first law of thermodynamics which is a version of the law of conservation of energy, adapted for thermodynamic systems. The law of conservation of energy states that the total energy of an isolated system is constant; energy can be transformed from one form to another, but cannot be created or destroyed.

I have researched all thermodynamic processes to no avail.

Thank You
This is a theory, not necessarily fact. Energy cannot be created in this universe, but the laws of physics may not be relevant to another "universe" or "dimension" for example, one universe creates energy and it could be "teleported" through the universes and dimensions to our universe using the quantum theory(a substance being in two places at once). The universe in which energy may be created would technically not exist, but it may exist since our laws of physics in this universe does not correspond to that particular dimension.
As for the universe being created, one point of view would be that energy had seeped through a barrier of some sort (keeping both dimensions apart) As Michael (Vsauce) said at the end of one of his videos, He explained that no one knows what would happen if you reached the "middle of the black hole", and that the particles would simply "disappear" in violation of all laws of physics, which could be how energy came to our universe, along with matter, anti-matter, dark matter, etc. Michael suggesting that they would disappear could be how those substances came, through a "break" in space-time due the immense gravity and an entrance to another dimension, where all our laws of physics and thermodynamics would fail to work; this theory needs work to explain how that break in space-time was formed, since a black hole needs matter to create itself. Many problems, but still intriguing.

This is as far as I got. I hope I spread some light on this "matter" (get it? matter? bad pun) Thanks!


Move to 6:00 mins and watch on from there. It's very interesting.
 
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  • #31
PeterDonis
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for example, one universe creates energy and it could be "teleported" through the universes and dimensions to our universe using the quantum theory(a substance being in two places at once).
Quantum theory doesn't say this. When people talk about "quantum teleportation", they only mean "teleporting" a quantum state; no actual energy or matter is teleported.

no one knows what would happen if you reached the "middle of the black hole", and that the particles would simply "disappear" in violation of all laws of physics
I don't think physicists actually believe this; rather, they believe that GR, as a theory, must break down before the singularity at the center of the black hole is reached. The prevailing opinion seems to be that we will understand better what happens then when we have a workable theory of quantum gravity.

which could be how energy came to our universe
Sort of; there is a speculative hypothesis that baby universes could be created at the centers of black holes, and that this would be what prevents an actual singularity from forming there (instead of disappearing, the matter and energy that would fall into the singularity goes into the baby universe). Our own universe, according to this speculation, could have been formed the same way, as a baby universe spawned from a black hole in some other universe.

However, it is not really correct to call this a "break in spacetime"; spacetime itself would be continuous through the whole process. Nor is it really correct to call the baby universe "another dimension"; it would still be part of an overall 4-d spacetime that contained our universe and all the other universes that had been spawned. (It's perfectly possible for the universes to not be able to communicate with each other and still be part of a single overall 4-d spacetime; a 4-d spacetime can be very big and can have any number, even an infinite number, of causal boundaries.) Whether or not the laws of physics could change through the process depends on whose speculations you are looking at. In any case, all of this is purely speculative; we have no way of testing any of it now or in the foreseeable future.
 
  • #32
I read a scientific report from a respected institution concerning the creation of the universe. The report focused on a quasar output jet as the beginning. It seems more rational than some big bang theory or Alan Guth’s cosmic inflation theory (faster than light?). I like the idea of the Quasar the largest structure in the Universe as the very beginning. If we have to write programs inside of programs we have to start somewhere (computer generated simulation).

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/may/18/matter-light-photons-electrons-positrons

I think Doug Huffman, The Quantum Physicist is right. Believe nothing read or heard without verifying it for yourself.
 
  • #33
Bandersnatch
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I read a scientific report from a respected institution concerning the creation of the universe.
Can you link to the report you read? The popular article link you provided is unrelated (concerns pair creation).

It seems more rational than
Do note that conforming to intuition does not equal being rational.
 
  • #34
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Another view is that the universe is the ultimate free lunch:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-energy_universe

Its my personal view.


Thanks
Bill


I like this one better, but it's not my personal view...


This viewpoint is even better ... but it's still not my personal view...

This is fascinating... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

But could, perhaps, lead to this... which would suck big time... lol

The possibility that we are living in a false vacuum has never been a cheering one to contemplate. Vacuum decay is the ultimate ecological catastrophe; in the new vacuum there are new constants of nature; after vacuum decay, not only is life as we know it impossible, so is chemistry as we know it. However, one could always draw stoic comfort from the possibility that perhaps in the course of time the new vacuum would sustain, if not life as we know it, at least some structures capable of knowing joy. This possibility has now been eliminated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_vacuum



This is who clams responsibly for... Energy cannot be created. Then where did it all come from?

It's my personal view... :approve:
 
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  • #35
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Energy cannot be created. Then where did it all come from?
Why cant energy be created?

As I have alluded to the reason is Noethers theorem - but that doesn't apply when the symmetries of inertial frames is broken. When that happens there is no reason for it to be conserved.

I believe it is - but that means diddly squat.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #36
ChrisVer
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Sort of; there is a speculative hypothesis that baby universes could be created at the centers of black holes, and that this would be what prevents an actual singularity from forming there (instead of disappearing, the matter and energy that would fall into the singularity goes into the baby universe). Our own universe, according to this speculation, could have been formed the same way, as a baby universe spawned from a black hole in some other universe.
If thhat is correct, then our universe should still have some cconnection to that "other" universe, and continuously be pumped with extra matter...
A way out would be the existence of wormholes, but we havent seen anything like that in our universe, even though it's "allowed". Why there should be a wormhole that would be able to bring here our whole universe?
 
  • #37
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Why cant energy be created?

Thanks
Bill

Lol, Bill... You're not a Star Trek fan... ?

Sloppy posting on my part... I'll change the wording a bit.
Energy cannot be created. Then where did it all come from?

This is who clams responsibly for... energy can be created, and I created it ! !

Q created the Universe, Bill... I'm sure of it... well, kinda... :oldwink: ... lol
 
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  • #38
Chronos
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If energy, space and time are emergent properties of the universe [as widely suspected], their spontaneous emergence would be difficult to categorize as anything less than a 'creation' event. Causal set theory is one approach to explore this possibility. Rafael Sorkin used it in the late 1980's to predict the existence and magnitude of dark energy, which was confirmed a decade later. A rather remarkable accomplishment by any standard, I would say.
 
  • #39
PeterDonis
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Why cant energy be created?
Energy can be created (in a spacetime without time translation symmetry), but stress-energy can't.
 
  • #40
PeterDonis
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If thhat is correct, then our universe should still have some cconnection to that "other" universe
In the simplest model, where the baby universe is spawned in place of the singularity at the center of an eternal black hole in the previous universe, yes, it should in principle be possible for matter from the previous universe to continue falling into the black hole forever (with respect to the previous universe--see below), and thereby coming through into our universe.

However, that does not mean the matter would continuously "appear" in our universe. From the standpoint of our universe, anything that falls into the black hole in the prior universe, no matter what time in the prior universe that happens, would appear in the Big Bang of our universe. "Time" is not the same in the two universes.
 
  • #41
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As the second article Bandersnatch linked to says, it depends on how you define "energy" and how you define "conserved". These terms aren't as simple as you and the article you have linked to appear to believe.

I strongly recommend reading both of Bandersnatch's links, but the basic error the article you linked to makes is to assume that "gravitational potential energy" is a well-defined term for the universe as a whole. It isn't; it is only well-defined in a stationary spacetime, and the universe is not stationary because it is expanding. (The first article Bandersnatch linked to goes into this in some detail.) So the analogy the article makes between analyzing the orbits of satellites around the Earth, and analyzing the universe as a whole, is not really valid.

It turns out that, for a closed universe, you can finesse this point by coming up with a way to define "gravitational potential energy" that works similarly enough to the orbiting satellite scenario to make the analogy valid. However, note that I said "a closed universe"; the article you linked to says this too. According to our best current model, our actual universe is not closed, so this way out doesn't work.

Btw, I should emphasize that I am in sympathy with the desire of the writer of the article you linked to, to not give religious people an excuse to say that the Big Bang theory requires something to be created out of nothing. But there is a much simpler way of doing that, which the article doesn't mention: point out that the law of conservation of energy is really a local law, not a global law: it says that energy can't be created or destroyed in any small volume of spacetime. Our current theories obey this law: in General Relativity it shows up as an identity, the Bianchi identity, which is obeyed by the Einstein Field Equation.
If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
 
  • #42
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If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274 [Broken]

"I'll say this: if the universe is infinitely big, then the answer is simply that it isn't expanding into anything; instead, what is happening is that every region of the universe, every distance between every pair of galaxies, is being "stretched", but the overall size of the universe was infinitely big to begin with and continues to remain infinitely big as time goes on, so the universe's size doesn't change, and therefore it doesn't expand into anything. If, on the other hand, the universe has a finite size, then it may be legitimate to claim that there is something "outside of the universe" that the universe is expanding into. However, because we are, by definition, stuck within the space that makes up our universe and have no way to observe anything outside of it, this ceases to be a question that can be answered scientifically. So the answer in that case is that we really don't know what, if anything, the universe is expanding into..... Well. We have 2 "scenario" according to data. 1 is extremely flat and the other is (very) slightly curved -- sphere, Depending on the shape. It can be finite or infinite.
 
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  • #43
PeterDonis
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If the universe is expanding, what is it expanding into?
There doesn't have to be anything for the universe to expand into. Our models of the expanding universe (including both those in which the universe is spatially infinite, and those in which the universe is spatially finite) are perfectly well-defined and self-consistent without having to include anything for the universe to expand into. And we don't have any observations that suggest there is anything for the universe to expand into. So the best answer we have right now is, there's nothing the universe is expanding into. It's simply a self-contained spacetime that happens to have "expansion" as one of its properties.
 
  • #44
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Thankyou Peter, for your gracious response.

We appear to be trying to grasp what's inherently incomprehensible to our current thought processes.

Not for an instant do I pretend to understand what's going on, however I have come to feel that we are not seeing space as it really is and then interpreting it aright.


I believe that there is no such "thing" as matter in any form, anywhere, or that there ever was any.

So where to from here? I just don't know.
 
  • #45
Quantum theory doesn't say this. When people talk about "quantum teleportation", they only mean "teleporting" a quantum state; no actual energy or matter is teleported.



I don't think physicists actually believe this; rather, they believe that GR, as a theory, must break down before the singularity at the center of the black hole is reached. The prevailing opinion seems to be that we will understand better what happens then when we have a workable theory of quantum gravity.



Sort of; there is a speculative hypothesis that baby universes could be created at the centers of black holes, and that this would be what prevents an actual singularity from forming there (instead of disappearing, the matter and energy that would fall into the singularity goes into the baby universe). Our own universe, according to this speculation, could have been formed the same way, as a baby universe spawned from a black hole in some other universe.

However, it is not really correct to call this a "break in spacetime"; spacetime itself would be continuous through the whole process. Nor is it really correct to call the baby universe "another dimension"; it would still be part of an overall 4-d spacetime that contained our universe and all the other universes that had been spawned. (It's perfectly possible for the universes to not be able to communicate with each other and still be part of a single overall 4-d spacetime; a 4-d spacetime can be very big and can have any number, even an infinite number, of causal boundaries.) Whether or not the laws of physics could change through the process depends on whose speculations you are looking at. In any case, all of this is purely speculative; we have no way of testing any of it now or in the foreseeable future.

You are completely correct. As you said, this is entirely speculative and I have no real proof of this theory, but it is something interesting to think about. Then again, with the amount of space the universe, and how it's enlarging, with the universe at googolplex metres across would make even the impossible certain as the amount of planets etc would reduce the possibility ratio down to such a level that it would become 1:1. (What a mouthful!) E.g. Pretend that a chance of having a planet EXACTLY as it is when you're reading this was 1:10000000*10, and each planet in the universe is worth one unit, if you had 1000000*10 planets, then it was impossible to not have an exact Earth out there; but of course we wouldn't live that long to know if there was or not because the sun would explode. :D So technically as time goes on and the universe grows, the possibility of having a black hole which has a big enough "hole" that can be entered and tested would be certain. Again, this is all extremely speculative, so this isn't necessarily "fact"

But, it's still really interesting to think about!
Thanks Peter for your contribution.
 
  • #46
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We appear to be trying to grasp what's inherently incomprehensible to our current thought processes.
Its perfectly comprehensible but written in the language of math like a lot of things in physics.

Imagine a balloon expanding. You can describe the surface mathematically devoid of the model that spawned it. Its known as Riemannian geometry and fundamental to it is the thing called the metric - that changes with expansion. GR extends that to what is called Pseudo Riemannian geometry. Its the abstraction process found in math all the time.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #47
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I believe that there is no such "thing" as matter in any form, anywhere, or that there ever was any. So where to from here? I just don't know.
There are speculative conjectures along those lines eg matter is sort of a knot in space-time.

The thing is science has a very tough standard - namely correspondence with experiment. And on that basis they have led no-where.

Where to from here?

I suggest three books to start with:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0471827223/?tag=pfamazon01-20&tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465075681/?tag=pfamazon01-20&tag=pfamazon01-20
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0465036678/?tag=pfamazon01-20&tag=pfamazon01-20

There are also video lectures:
http://theoreticalminimum.com/

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #48
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Why is God not even considered? It is a bit closed minded to leave Him out totally. I don't see a reason it could not be God, and every reason for it to be God. Not to be a Christian trolling, just saying, there is no reason to exclude Him from academic and intelligent discussion. If God exists (which I believe He does), and we dance around Him, then we may get possibilities, and may never get an answer, or the truth. So why cant God, who is omnipotent create the universe. Why cant there be a super nature (supernatural) outside the universe instead of nothing? It does not mean it is, or contains God, it could contain "supernatural" particles, abstract objects, or things that can not exist in the natural world, supernatural does not have to have its normal connotations. Furthermore, why cant it be possible for that nature in itself to have a consciousness, like taking a derivative (except in the opposite direction, but not an integral since data would be added) of nature, and yielding a nature with consciousness (which does not have to be the case), if it does why is that not God, or why can it not contain God? Just saying, why do we not consider these things and exclude them simply discrediting people who believe in a God without giving them proper consideration. We can come up with scientific theories of how it could work, but it does not mean it is the truth (it does not mean they aren't either). If by nature we cant understand the creation of the universe, and we can not understand God, don't these two things fall into the same category of thought at times, and deserve consideration? I understand the majority of physics people are atheists and agnostics, but I don't see why a deity, or a super nature can not be considered.


I dont mean to troll, I am just wondering why physisits can not consider a super - nature, or a God.
 
  • #49
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Why is God not even considered?
We discuss science here - not theology.

Science is a process of test, hypothesise, test, hypothesise over and over. Its got nothing to do with God - or rather no one has ever been able to come up with a test, experiment, observation, whatever you want to call it that can decide the issue one way or the other.

Of course that in no way demeans the deep felt religious beliefs of some - its just not science.

Nor does it stop some scientists like Hawking and Dawkin's from speculation on such things - but its not science.

For what its worth I personally believe in the god of Spinoza as Einstein did - but that's just me and, to bemoan the point, its not science.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #50
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Thanks for the reply. I am not offended, but what I am saying is that if there is something science can not explain, then why try to explain it with science. If there is both theology, and science in the world, then why just go off science and not consider theology?
 

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