Energy Formulas in SR: Explained

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy formulas in special relativity, specifically the relationships between the equations ##E=\gamma m_0 c^2## and ##E=\sqrt{(m_0 c^2)^2 + (pc)^2}##. Participants explore the implications of these formulas, their applications in various contexts, and the conceptual understanding of mass and energy in relativistic physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the two energy formulas are equivalent when using the relativistic expression for momentum.
  • Others argue that the term "relativistic mass" can lead to confusion and is not commonly used among physicists today.
  • A participant questions the necessity of the second formula when the first appears more elegant and compact for certain calculations.
  • Some participants propose that the second formula is more versatile, applicable even for massless particles like photons.
  • There is a discussion about the advantages of using four-vector formalism over traditional methods in special relativity, particularly in simplifying calculations.
  • A later reply emphasizes that using four-vectors can prevent common mistakes in energy and momentum conservation problems.
  • Participants explore examples where four-vectors provide clearer solutions compared to scalar quantities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the use of relativistic mass and the preferred energy formula for various scenarios. There is no consensus on which formula is superior or more appropriate for specific applications, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about the definitions of mass and energy, as well as the conditions under which the formulas apply. There are unresolved questions regarding the implications of using different formulations in practical scenarios.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to students and professionals in physics, particularly those studying special relativity, energy-momentum relationships, and the mathematical frameworks used in theoretical physics.

  • #31
Orodruin said:
This is actually the reason I dislike the term "covariant vector" (and "contravariant vector"). The vectors themselves are either tangent vectors, which may be defined as directional derivatives or equivalence classes of curves, or covectors. Tangent vectors have a coordinate basis which transforms covariantly with components transforming contravariantly and covectors have contravariant coordinate bases and covariant components. The vectors themselves are not dependent on the choice of coordinate system and are either tangent vectors or covectors.
Well "covariant" and "contravariant" are old terms - they tend to mix up the expression of new vectors in terms of the old basis vectors and the expression of the same vector in terms of the new basis. I think we can agree that one-forms and vectors sound "nicer".
 
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  • #32
I actually prefer tangent vectors and co(tangent)vectors. The reason is that "one form" brings my mind to think of n-forms and not arbitrary tensors.
 
  • #33
Orodruin said:
The reason is that "one form" brings my mind to think of n-forms and not arbitrary tensors.

Is there a difference between n-forms and tensors?
 
  • #34
PWiz said:
AFAIK, there is no way to actually "prove" why upper indices were chosen to be contravariant - it just seems like an arbitrary decision to me. All that really matters in the end is that the summation is correctly carried out when two identical upper and lower indices are seen in an expression, and that one-forms and vectors are clearly distinguishable and recognizable when seen together (to prevent tensor algebra from going topsy-turvy).

Well, in the Einstein convention, it's pretty hard to go wrong, because you always match a raised index with a lowered index. The only additional bits that need to be remembered is that whatever your convention for variables such as x^\alpha, derivatives count as the opposite: \partial_\alpha.
 
  • #35
ChrisVer said:
Is there a difference between n-forms and tensors?

The way I understand it, an n-form is a special case of a tensor, namely a tensor whose components have all lowered indices.
 
  • #36
I should have written an (0 n)-tensor or (n 0)-tensor (I don't remember right now where the contra/co-variant rank goes in this notation)
 
  • #37
An ##n##-form is (equivalent to) a totally anti-symmetric ##(0,n)## tensor. A typical example of a ##(0,2)## tensor which is not a 2-form is the metric.
 
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  • #38
Isn't an n-form a ##\binom {0}{n}## type tensor - a function of ##n## vectors into the real numbers which is linear in each of its ##n## arguments?
 
  • #39
So it takes the antisymmetry of the (0 n)-tensor...
The thing is that I have only encountered 0 or 1 forms,and this didn't let me see any distinction.
 
  • #40
Of course, for 1-forms, there is nothing to be anti-symmetric with so they are equivalent to covectors.
 
  • #41
As for the ict...
One useful application of that in SR is when you want to look at the rotations and boosts that are there for the Lorentz Group SO(3,1) instead of pure rotations that would be for the SO(4). In fact it would change the trigonometric functions (rotations) to hyperbolic ones (boosts). It is useful because I think it doesn't intercept with the problems of GR set by Stevendaryl .
And generally then for Wick rotations (but that's another thing).
 
  • #42
stevendaryl said:
Well, in the Einstein convention, it's pretty hard to go wrong, because you always match a raised index with a lowered index. The only additional bits that need to be remembered is that whatever your convention for variables such as x^\alpha, derivatives count as the opposite: \partial_\alpha.
It can sometimes be difficult to remember which indices go up and which go down. Take the tensor transformation law for example:
$$S^{μ'}\ _{ν\ 'ρ'}= \frac{∂x^{μ'}}{∂x^{μ}} \frac{∂x^{ν}}{∂x^{ν \ '}} \frac{∂x^{ρ}}{∂x^{ρ'}} S^{μ}\ _{νρ}$$
I'm trying to memorize this (and it's a little tricky) right now. If I were to mix up the order of even one index, everything would go for a toss.
 
  • #43
PWiz said:
It can sometimes be difficult to remember which indices go up and which go down. Take the tensor transformation law for example:
$$S^{μ'}\ _{ν\ 'ρ'}= \frac{∂x^{μ'}}{∂x^{μ}} \frac{∂x^{ν}}{∂x^{ν \ '}} \frac{∂x^{ρ}}{∂x^{ρ'}} S^{μ}\ _{νρ}$$
I'm trying to memorize this (and it's a little tricky) right now. If I were to mix up the order of even one index, everything would go for a toss.

There is really only one way of doing it and the rules to follow are very simple. Free upper indices need to be up on both sides and vice versa. Repeated (summation) indices need to appear one up and one down (partial derivatives count as down in terms of the coordinate they are derivatives with respect to).
 

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