Ensemble vs. time averages and Ashcroft and Mermin Problem 1.1

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on the analysis of collision probabilities of electrons using statistical mechanics principles, particularly referencing Ashcroft and Mermin's Problem 1.1. The probability of no collision over a time interval is derived as \( P_{nc}(t) = e^{-t/\tau} \), where \( \tau \) is the mean time between collisions. The participants emphasize the independence of time intervals and the symmetry of time, concluding that the probability of no collision in the past is equal to that in the future. Additionally, they explore the relationship between ensemble averages and time averages, indicating a need for clarity in distinguishing between different random variables involved in the analysis.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of statistical mechanics concepts, specifically collision theory.
  • Familiarity with the Drude model of electrical conduction.
  • Knowledge of probability theory, particularly independent events and exponential distributions.
  • Basic grasp of ensemble averages versus time averages in statistical physics.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation of the exponential distribution in the context of collision processes.
  • Learn about the Drude model and its implications for electron behavior in materials.
  • Investigate the differences between ensemble averages and time averages in statistical mechanics.
  • Explore advanced topics in collision theory and their applications in condensed matter physics.
USEFUL FOR

Students and researchers in physics, particularly those focusing on statistical mechanics, condensed matter physics, and the behavior of electrons in materials. This discussion is also beneficial for anyone looking to deepen their understanding of collision probabilities and statistical analysis in physical systems.

EE18
Messages
112
Reaction score
13
Homework Statement
Please see the attached photo.
Relevant Equations
See below.
The question is as seen below:
Screen Shot 2023-04-10 at 1.44.48 PM.png


My attempt (note that my questions are in bold below) is below. Please note that I am self-studying AM:

(a) By the independence of any interval ##dt## of time and time symmetry, we expect these two answers are the same (Is there any way to make this rigorous?). Divide the interval ##[0,t]## into ##N## intervals. Then the probability of no collision in ##[0,t]## is equal to the probability that there is no collision in each and every interval ##[t_i,t_i+t/N]##. Since each interval is statistically independent, we compute this probability (which we call ##P_{nc}(t)##) as the product of the probability of no collision in each interval, each of which is of length ##t/N## (i.e. these are i.i.d. intervals):
$$
P_{nc}(t) \equiv \lim_{n \to \infty} \left(1 - \frac{t}{N\tau}\right)^N = e^{-t/\tau}.
$$
We emphasize again that this is the probability that a given electron has not collided over the previous time ##t##, which is the same probability as that given electron not colliding over the future time ##t##.

(b)
The probability of the event that the time interval between collisions of an electron is ##t## can be argued (It's not clear to me why this should be the same as the probability that a given electron -- not necessarily just collided -- has time ##t## between two of its collisions.) to be the same as the probability of an electron which has just collided colliding again between ##t## and ##t+dt##. But this latter event is precisely the event ##A## that the electron does not collide in ##[0,t]## and ##B## also does collide in ##[t,t+dt)##. ##P(A)## is known from a), while ##P(B) = dt/\tau## from Drude Axiom 4. Thus, by the independence of different time intervals, we have ##P(A\&B) = P(A)P(B) = P_{nc}(t)dt/\tau = e^{-t/\tau}dt/\tau.##

For (c), (d), and (e), I am at a bit of a loss. I have read somewhere that I cannot seem to find now that perhaps this has something to do with the difference between an ensemble vs. time average, but it seems to me like what's really going on is that there is a different random variable under investigation in (c) and (d).
 
Physics news on Phys.org
EE18 said:
My attempt (note that my questions are in bold below) is below. Please note that I am self-studying AM:

(a) By the independence of any interval ##dt## of time and time symmetry, we expect these two answers are the same (Is there any way to make this rigorous?). Divide the interval ##[0,t]## into ##N## intervals. Then the probability of no collision in ##[0,t]## is equal to the probability that there is no collision in each and every interval ##[t_i,t_i+t/N]##. Since each interval is statistically independent, we compute this probability (which we call ##P_{nc}(t)##) as the product of the probability of no collision in each interval, each of which is of length ##t/N## (i.e. these are i.i.d. intervals):
$$
P_{nc}(t) \equiv \lim_{n \to \infty} \left(1 - \frac{t}{N\tau}\right)^N = e^{-t/\tau}.
$$
We emphasize again that this is the probability that a given electron has not collided over the previous time ##t##, which is the same probability as that given electron not colliding over the future time ##t##.
This looks good to me.

The reason we expect the same result for the preceding ##t## seconds and for the next ##t## seconds is that the calculations for the two cases are essentially identical. For the preceding ##t## seconds, you would work with the time interval ##[-t, 0]##; for the future ##t## seconds, you work with the interval ##[0, t]##. Either way, you can break the interval into N subintervals and proceed as you did. So, unless I’m overlooking something, it should be clear that the probability of no collision during the preceding ##t## seconds should equal the probability of no collision during the next ##t## seconds.

EE18 said:
(b)
The probability of the event that the time interval between collisions of an electron is ##t## can be argued (It's not clear to me why this should be the same as the probability that a given electron -- not necessarily just collided -- has time ##t## between two of its collisions.) to be the same as the probability of an electron which has just collided colliding again between ##t## and ##t+dt##. But this latter event is precisely the event ##A## that the electron does not collide in ##[0,t]## and ##B## also does collide in ##[t,t+dt)##. ##P(A)## is known from a), while ##P(B) = dt/\tau## from Drude Axiom 4. Thus, by the independence of different time intervals, we have ##P(A\&B) = P(A)P(B) = P_{nc}(t)dt/\tau = e^{-t/\tau}dt/\tau.##
Again, this looks good. I’m not sure I understand your bold-faced concern. For part (b), I don’t see why you are concerned with an electron "not necessarily just collided”.

EE18 said:
For (c), (d), and (e), I am at a bit of a loss.
For part (c) you are picking an arbitrary instant of time which we can call the “present time”. Then, for each electron, there is a time interval ##t## from the present time to the electron’s next collision. The values of ##t## for the different electrons will be distributed with some probability distribution ##P(t)## such that ##P(t)dt## is the probability that the time interval from the present time to the next collision lies between ##t## and ##t+dt##. Using part (a) and using reasoning similar to that used in part (b), you can find an explicit expression for ##P(t)##. Then you can use ##P(t)## to find ##\langle t \rangle##, where ##\langle t \rangle## is the time interval between the present time and the next collision averaged over all the electrons.

Similarly, you can find the average time back to the previous collision.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
12K
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
950
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
4K