News EPA says Volkswagen installed software to cheat on emissions

[Astronuc]

No, sorry for my ignorance but are diesel engines difficult to pass inspections?

Diesel engines run at a higher temperature, and that produces more NOx, which has to be processed with catalytic system. I'm guessing that the emissions treatment system puts a back pressure on the system which reduces mileage.

http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhaust-emissions-modern-diesel-cars
http://www.dieselforum.org/news/advancements-in-clean-diesel-technology-and-fuel-to-continue-major-reductions-in-black-carbon-emissions

Effect of Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) on Performance and Emission characteristics of a Three Cylinder Direct Injection Compression Ignition Engine
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1110016812000907

 

[PietKuip]

Diesel engines run at a higher temperature, and that produces more NOx, which has to be processed with catalytic system. I'm guessing that the emissions treatment system puts a back pressure on the system which reduces mileage.

Back pressure does not seem to be the main problem. One way to get rid of the NOx is to add urea (AdBlue) to the exhaust. But VW is using very little of that, typically this is only replenished at maintenance service.

Another way is to absorb the NOx on something and then burn it off once in a while. Fuel efficiency is low then.

 

[russ_watters]

I drive a 14 year old Honda Accord and it passes inspection every year. What the heck are people driving?

I think you may be looking at the issue backwards. These cars/people can meet the emissions standard, they just choose not to. The issue (the motive) is not to make a car that can't pass emissions pretend to be able to, it is to make a car that doesn't meet its performance spec perform better. VW probably spent a billion dollars developing and uses that emissions control system as the primary marketing point of many of their cars. It works fine - they just don't actually use it. They shut it off because the cars run better with them off.

So if you're a gearhead and there is a simple* software tweak that can boost your car's performance by 10-20%, why not do it? (A: because it is illegal)

*Simple for the gearhead, not simple for VW. The gearhead can turn the system on and off manually. For him, all it is is an on/off switch (software based). VW had to program-in a sophisticated set of criteria for the computer to decide when to switch it on and off (detecting when it is being tested vs driving normally).

 

[DaveC426913]

It is so unbelievable that some company would deliberately do something such as flaunt the laws to get an edge

flout not flaunt.

 

[256bits]

flout not flaunt.

Guilty as charged.

 

[mheslep]

They paid for something they did not receive: a clean burning diesel engine (it is called the "clean diesel"). That's one of VW's major marketing points. A feature that sets them apart from other cars.

Or, alternatively, VW is made to recall and remove the emissions defeat software, turning the peppy little car into an old style, low torque diesel slug, and no doubt grounds for a law suit by owners.

 

[lisab]

Or, alternatively, VW is made to recall and remove the emissions defeat software, turning the peppy little into an old style, low torque diesel slug, and no doubt grounds for a law suit by owners.

Ah yes, THEN they'd truly have standing!

 

[Vanadium 50]

flout not flaunt.

Actually, it's not grammar. It's diction.

 

[PietKuip]

"When the cars are being driven, the steering column vibrates and the deNOx parts of the catalytic converter were not turned on. Urea was not sprayed into the exhaust pathway, and the feedback loop necessary for proper NSR was probably not turned on either. When the car was being smog tested, the steering column was stationary and the catalytic converter was turned on."
"I’m also sort of dumbfounded that TDI owners didn’t notice that they never needed to fill their SCR tank, but perhaps VW just told them that it would not need to be filled very often."
http://oldbiddyblogging.blogspot.se/2015/09/a-catalyst-chemists-viewpoint-on-vw.html

Indeed, VW told customers that AdBlue was typically something that only was needed at maintenance service. The tank holds about 20 liters. This is suspiciously low if one compares to what others use: about 5 % of the fuel consumption. Customers do not like to add this:
http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/12_month_car_reviews/1301_2012_volkswagen_passat_se_tdi_january_update/

 

[Vanadium 50]

Many of the TDIs sold did not use AdBlue at all. So there is nothing to be suspicious about its use.

 

[Borg]

The emissions testing could easily check to see which software version the engine is running.

Ah yes. That would be the simpliest solution.

 

[nsaspook]

"Your mileage will vary."

Ah yes. That would be the simpliest solution.

Simple version of software checks are much too easy to fudge with a hack this good until trust in VW is restored. Random operational test conditions with a external certified ECM (non-VW) monitor piggybacked on the original ECM system is what caught them and that's just about the only system in the beginning I would trust.
http://www.theicct.org/sites/defaul...WVU_LDDV_in-use_ICCT_Report_Final_may2014.pdf

 

[russ_watters]

How about a database of who has had their software upgraded (participated in the recall)?

 

[Borg]

How about a database of who has had their software upgraded (participated in the recall)?

I was thinking about that in post 20 but kept coming up with various issues. The main one being that each state has it's own software that would have to be updated to access the database.

 

[nsaspook]

How about a database of who has had their software upgraded (participated in the recall)?

The problem is the code is in the wild and nothing will get it back. In states with little or no car testing the update compliance will be low. The market for used VW ECM modules and third party hacks will skyrocket in states where people are forced to update. I haven't run the numbers but the value in keeping the cheat over the lifetime of the car must be in the thousands for a owner that drives a lot so an incentive plan (paid by VW) that matches that amount in exchange for mandatory extra random monitoring might work.

 

[russ_watters]

The problem is...

Not VW's problem any like any hack is not the responsibility of the manufacturer.

 

[nsaspook]

Not VW's problem any like any hack is not the responsibility of the manufacturer.

Unless they did the hack and admitted to it.

 

[phinds]

another 2.8 million cars found in Germany and I'm confident that this is not the end of the findings:

http://news.yahoo.com/volkswagen-pick-boss-tackle-emissions-scandal-113739934--finance.html

Volkswagen could end up going down the tubes if all of the possible fines are actually levied after all the tricked out cars are found all over the world.

 

[nsaspook]

What's that up ahead?

 

[russ_watters]

Unless they did the hack and admitted to it.

Huh? Maybe we're not talking about the same thing. VW's big problems right now are:
1. They aren't allowed to sell their diesel cars.
2. A lot of the cars they sold are violating emissions rules.

Until they fix these issues, they are dead as a company. So they need to upgrade the software of some 11 million cars and be able to prove (enable the owners to prove) the cars are compliant. What happens after that is not their concern. If the owners go back and undo the "fix", that isn't VW's problem.

 

[nsaspook]

Huh? Maybe we're not talking about the same thing. VW's big problems right now are:
1. They aren't allowed to sell their diesel cars.
2. A lot of the cars they sold are violating emissions rules.

Until they fix these issues, they are dead as a company. So they need to upgrade the software of some 11 million cars and be able to prove (enable the owners to prove) the cars are compliant. What happens after that is not their concern. If the owners go back and undo the "fix", that isn't VW's problem.

Normally I would agree but I don't think that would be acceptable in this case due to the level of total mistrust in VW being honest.
The people most upset are members of the enviro crowd who used the TDI as a sign of green. That won't be an easy group to appease.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20150924/OEM11/150929883/vws-clean-diesel-promotion-now-looks-like-jon-stewart-gag

Needless to say, many Gen Xers now feel like rubes.

Nikki Medoro, 36, almost bought a Prius when she moved to San Jose, Calif. She wanted to limit the expense and environmental impact of her daily commute to and from San Francisco. A friend at the radio station where Medoro is a news anchor persuaded her to buy a 2012 Jetta diesel sports wagon instead. It was her first Volkswagen. That was 133,323 miles ago.

Feeling duped

“I’ve been their No. 1 fricking fan this whole time,” she said. “I told everyone about my car. I loved my car. Then this happened. I get madder every moment that passes by about this. Every mile of that I was just polluting. I feel so duped.”
...
After learning that her 2011 diesel Jetta station wagon had turned her into an unwitting uber-polluter, Grabriela Paz, a single mom from Oakland, Calif., knew one thing for sure: “I definitely won’t buy a VW again.”

If they really are thinking about buying back every car affected in the USA instead of a fix. That tells me two things

1: A simple software fix is impossible in the US without turning the car into a driving dud.
2: It's better to limit the damage at great cost than to continue to support the cars here.

 

[nsaspook]

http://autoweek.com/article/car-news/vw-emissions-defeat-device-isnt-first

In 1974, Volkswagen agreed to pay $120,000 to settle a complaint filed by the EPA that the company failed to properly disclose the existence of two devices that modified emissions controls on about 25,000 1973 model VWs, according to a Wall Street Journal report and an EPA press release about the case. The settlement included no admission of wrongdoing by VW, the Journal reported. The devices consisted of two temperature-sensing switches that deactivated part of the emissions control systems, the EPA said.

The EPA said at the time that VW failed to disclose the existence of the devices on its 1973 emissions certification applications. VW did disclose them on a 1974 application, which the EPA rejected, and VW agreed to remove the devices.

 

[Hornbein]

Volkswagen could end up going down the tubes if all of the possible fines are actually levied after all the tricked out cars are found all over the world.

This will not occur. Judges are very reluctant to punish industries to such an extent. I can't recall it every having happened.

 

[russ_watters]

I was thinking about that in post 20 but kept coming up with various issues. The main one being that each state has it's own software that would have to be updated to access the database.

Sorry I missed that. I really don't see the database idea being an issue though. A service tech at a gas station can simply enter the vin number into a web form and find out if the car has had its recall service performed. It wouldn't have to be done automatically.

Normally I would agree but I don't think that would be acceptable in this case due to the level of total mistrust in VW being honest.

I don't see how VW's dishonesty enters into the equation moving forward. Nobody is going to trust VW and they won't have to: they will verify by checking the cars.

If they really are thinking about buying back every car affected in the USA instead of a fix. That tells me two things

1: A simple software fix is impossible in the US without turning the car into a driving dud.

I haven't seen any indication that they are actually considering buying-back the cars, however in researching a bit for that, I did find a significant gap in my understanding of the situation implied by your #1:

The standard way of making a diesel run cleanly is to use selective catalytic reduction, a chemical process that breaks NOx down into nitrogen and water. Part of that process includes adding urea to the mix. The super effective system can eliminate 70 to 90 percent of NOx emissions, and is used by other diesel manufacturers like Mercedes and BMW. The downside is that it adds complication to the system, and cost—$5,000 to $8,000 per car. And you need to periodically add the urea-based solution to your car to keep it working.

The big “advance” from VW was the “clean diesel” technology that supposedly made the whole urea thing unnecessary on its smaller cars...

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/

Well if the VW engines don't use urea, then how, exactly do they do it? Maybe I was wrong above when I said it "works fine". Maybe it "works fine" if you only run it a hundred hours over the lifespan of the car or don't run out of a secret urea stash somewhere? But if there is something fishy about the technology, why don't a whole bunch of people know about it already? Shouldn't VW's technology be patented? Shouldn't the other manufacturers have reverse engineered it? Shouldn't a million gearhead car owners have been suspicious of a system that couldn't possibly work as advertised? Shouldn't 10,000 engineers in the VW drivetrain team realize that their emissions control system they were designing is a black box with nothing in it? This is almost feeling like a perpetual motion machine type hoax!

Wiki on the typical method:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_exhaust_fluid

 

[PietKuip]

Well if the VW engines don't use urea, then how, exactly do they do it?

Some of the VW cars use urea. There is a link to it on this page: http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/diesel
But that link (that I could read earlier today) is gone now... still here: http://web.archive.org/web/20150912083859/http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/technology/diesel/adblue

VW cars used suspiciously little of this. Maybe only enough when the "defeat device", the "switch" was on?

This is almost feeling like a perpetual motion machine type hoax!

 

[nsaspook]

I haven't seen any indication that they are actually considering buying-back the cars, however in researching a bit for that, I did find a significant gap in my understanding of the situation implied by your #1:

http://www.wired.com/2015/09/vw-owners-arent-going-like-fixes-diesels/

Well if the VW engines don't use urea, then how, exactly do they do it? Maybe I was wrong above when I said it "works fine". Maybe it "works fine" if you only run it a hundred hours over the lifespan of the car or don't run out of a secret urea stash somewhere? But if there is something fishy about the technology, why don't a whole bunch of people know about it already? Shouldn't VW's technology be patented? Shouldn't the other manufacturers have reverse engineered it? Shouldn't a million gearhead car owners have been suspicious of a system that couldn't possibly work as advertised? Shouldn't 10,000 engineers in the VW drivetrain team realize that their emissions control system they were designing is a black box with nothing in it? This is almost feeling like a perpetual motion machine type hoax!

Then how, exactly do they do it? They don't and I'm sure that car has been torn apart to the last bolt or wire looking for the magic they used. This fact is the one that makes me believe that this is not a little slice of code but is a very sophisticated and well engineered system on the level that usually only governments can pull off.

The bigger the lie the better it works. Maybe their lie was little too good because the technical information that caught them was done by a group that wanted to prove others could do what VW was selling. My speculation: This is similar to a compartmentalized operational plan where many innocent looking things in isolation are combined for the needed function to happen.

I normally Poo Poo conspiracy theories but sometimes that's where the facts seem to lead. Maybe there's a simple answer to how they did it with everyone overlooking it for years because it was like one almost identical tree in a huge forest of trees.

I'm still waiting for more facts in this fascinating story.

 

[Borg]

The horse has left the barn - time for the EPA to finally act.

The EPA outlined its plan in a strongly worded letter to car manufacturers on Friday.

the EPA won't be relying solely on vehicles provided by manufacturers for its baseline standards testing anymore. It will now borrow specific models from private citizens and rental companies as well.

 

[mheslep]

the EPA won't be relying solely on vehicles provided by manufacturers for its baseline standards testing anymore. It will now borrow specific models from private citizens and rental companies as well.

That action would not have necessarily helped detect the cheat, as per the reports the software was specifically designed to detect EPA test parameters so that any vehicle off the VW line would have detected the test and and curbed emissions.

 

[mheslep]

I'm reminded of this prescient comment from GM executive Bob Lutz back in 2007 when GM was justifying its PHEV decision. Lutz contended the EPA's NOx standard, 0.7 g/mile, which causes problems for diesel engines, was six times higher than the EU standard. Technically there was a solution, barely, but it entailed another $2K to $2.8K in costs and lower fuel mileage on the diesel. Together with the pending gasoline engine technology improvements at the time, GM concluded that diesel had no long term efficiency or market advantage.



The large difference between US and EU NOx standards is a bit suspicious. I can speculate on a technical rationale in that the US has nearly double the vehicle ownership rate of the EU, and more cars per city entails more smog per city with other variables constant. Political reasons are also possible via regulatory capture, on both continents. In the EU perhaps NOx standards were kept low at the cost of more smog to advantage EU diesel manufacturers. In the US, perhaps NOx standards have been set unreasonably high to protect US manufacturers from EU diesel imports.

 

[Astronuc]

VW emission recall could be the most expensive ever
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-recall-could-be-the-most-expensive-ever-194521326.html

Volkswagen (VOW3.DE) has a much more complicated problem. It hasn’t issued a recall yet for nearly 500,000 turbodiesel models in the U.S. with “defeat devices” that shut down emission controls during normal driving. But it almost certainly will. The government won’t even let VW sell new models with the device until it fixes the problem, which has exploded into a scandal likely to http://finance.yahoo.com/news/sell-sue-stay-put-considerations-153231784.html and possibly criminal prosecution.

VW has already set aside $7.2 billion to deal with recalls, fines, litigation and other costs resulting from what appears to be a deliberate effort to deceive regulators and customers, however, the cost could be twice as much or more.

Meanwhile, VW has promoted the head of Porsche, Matthias Mueller, to CEO of the VW Group.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/vw-names-porsche-chief-mueller-ceo-supervisory-board-170719236.html