News EPA says Volkswagen installed software to cheat on emissions

[russ_watters]

There is clearly no present-day VW mode that does both. I am less certain that there is no aftermarket chip that does both.

I am: the separate modes are mutually exclusive. You can have chemistry or physics, but not both at the same time. That's why the fraud was needed.

More wear on various engine elements. But given a choice between replacing 500,000 cars now or 10,000 turbochargers over the next decade, which would VW prefer?

Ok, no mode that does both without destroying itself or needing a refill of the hidden urea tank (guess) once a week. Same diff.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The ECU design balances four priorities: emissions, economy, reliability, and performance. VW decided they wanted economy, reliability, and performance at the cost of emissions. No reason why one couldn't tilt the balance differently: emissions, economy, and performance at the cost of reliability. Whether this is feasible is a matter of numbers: if you could get legal emissions and substantially similar economy and performance at a cost of reducing the average engine lifetime from 400,000 miles (I made this number up) to 399,999 miles, we would also say "do it!". If it changed from 400,000 miles to 1 mile, we'd all say that's ridiculous.

I'm not an expert on these chips, but expect that there is substantial additional wear on the EGR valve ($200-300 to replace) and some additional wear on the turbos themselves ($1500-$3500 to replace). If VW had to replace every EGR valve and 10% of the turbos over the lifetimes of these cars, they'd jump at the chance.

 

[mheslep]

It seems to me government can best serve consumers and the environment in this case by leaving the VWs already on the road alone and beating the heck out of VW corporate, thus sending a message to other mfns who might attempt a similar fraud. Air pollution is effected by the level of NOx emissions from the entire US fleet. The relevant VW diesels in the US start with 2009 models and appear to number in the thousands (482,000 ?). They really don't matter among a fleet of 200 million vehicles, IF the price for such fraud is shown to be extreme.

 

[russ_watters]

The ECU design balances four priorities: emissions, economy, reliability, and performance. VW decided they wanted economy, reliability, and performance at the cost of emissions. No reason why one couldn't tilt the balance differently: emissions, economy, and performance at the cost of reliability. Whether this is feasible is a matter of numbers...

Assuming it is even physically possible to tip the trade-off that way, sure: the car has a certain warranty (arrived at via competition) and needs a certain reliability for that to be economical. That's pretty much non-negotiable. It's the least malleable of the parameters.

I'm not an expert on these chips, but expect that there is substantial additional wear on the EGR valve ($200-300 to replace) and some additional wear on the turbos themselves ($1500-$3500 to replace). If VW had to replace every EGR valve and 10% of the turbos over the lifetimes of these cars, they'd jump at the chance.

I'm not either and I'm still unsure of how they are able to operate in a mode that passes emissions at all, given that other cars need a consumable catalyst, which these apparently do not have. That's why I'm saying I don't know that the trade-off you are suggesting is even possible. But sure, if it were a fairly minor reliability issue, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance. The fact that they chose fraud instead implies to me that it is worse than that.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Well, we know that they balked at a $300 urea-based NOx remover, so a reliability reduction of $300 equivalence would also be rejected. Rejecting that putative tune point may have made sense in 2007. It may look a lot more reasonable today, when faced with fines that are two orders of magnitude larger.

Looking at dyno curves, it looks like there is about a 10% loss in power in test mode. This is a number that is not out of the question to get by reprogramming ECUs. Maybe the EGR valve dies sooner.

 

[mheslep]

A 10% power loss by choice is out of the question for most owners I suspect.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The loss is 10% if you do nothing beyond . I believe that may well be recoverable by programming. 20% or so can be gained by increasing the turbo boost, which will, in turn put more stress on various systems. That may reduce reliability, but as I argued above, this may be the least expensive alternative for VW.

 

[nsaspook]

Any 'fix' must include another one to fix the corrupt executive management and corporate structure.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-vw-cancels-2016-diesel-line-up-20151007-story.html
http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF02/20151008/104046/HHRG-114-IF02-Wstate-HornM-20151008.pdf

CSPAN schedule: http://www.c-span.org/video/?328599-1/hearing-volkswagen-emissions-violations

The decision came to light late Wednesday afternoon after Volkswagen's U.S. chief executive, Michael Horn, released written copies of testimony he is expected to give before Congress on Thursday.

In the testimony, in which Horn offers "a sincere apology for Volkswagen's use of a program that served to defeat" emissions tests, the executive said, "We have withdrawn the application for certification of our model year 2016 vehicles.
...
"They’ve abandoned the entire 2016 model year (2.0L diesel engine) diesels, and that's not good news for owners," Brauer said. "It suggests that the fix is probably not going to be easy. It suggests that the fix involves so much challenge that they’re not even going try to make the 2016s work."
...
Update: The EPA issued a statement saying, "Today Volkswagen withdrew their certification application for 2016 vehicle models that use the 2.0L diesel engine including the AUDI: A3 VOLKSWAGEN: BEETLE, BEETLE CONVERTIBLE, GOLF, GOLF SPORTWAGEN, JETTA, PASSAT models."
A Volkswagen representative said the Touareg diesel, which uses a 3.0-liter engine, was not affected by the EPA discussions and would be part of the 2016 line-up.

 

[nsaspook]

The hearing is on CSPAN3 online now.

Quick notes from the hearing:

No software only fix for at least the 1st gen cars 430,000 cars.
Needs AdBlue and catalytic converter, no current time frame for a fix.
Fix will affect overall drive-ability, possible compensation to customers of affected cars.

Software and some hardware senors added ,maybe next year for 2nd gen cars, 95,000 cars.

Dealers: VW to fund money to save dealers. No plans to buy back current new car inventory.

 

[nsaspook]

Find this in the hearing.
The statements from rep. Chris Collins (R-NY and a engineer) on VW cheating were right on point.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.kcci.com/project-economy/volkswagen-faces-tough-questions-on-capitol-hill/35722356

"This was not a corporate decision. To my best knowledge today, this was a couple of software engineers who put this in for whatever reason," said Michael Horn in response to questions from Rep. Joe Barton during a Congressional committee on the scandal.

Barton expressed disbelief with Horn's answer, saying he couldn't believe that no one in management was aware of such an important decision considering "how well run as VW has always been."

"I agree, it's very hard to believe," Horn said.
...
Rep. Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat, said that Volkswagen should buy back the diesel cars at the original purchase price. "If they want it, every VW clean diesel owner should be able to get their money back," she said. Horn said the company is looking at how to compensate owners but that its plans are to fix the cars, not repurchase them.

Schakowsky said assurances from the company that the cars will eventually be fixed, perhaps by the end of next year, are not enough.

"Volkswagen's word isn't worth a dime," she said. "To find a company that deliberately cheated asking customers for patience, is not acceptable."

Following Schakowsky's criticism of VW, Rep. Chris Collins, a New York Republican, echoed her remarks.

"VW is trying to get the United States of America to believe this is the work of a couple of rogue engineers," he said, "and I categorically reject that."

I agree, it's very hard to believe.

 

[nsaspook]

The EPA say's it's doesn't understand or needs to understand exactly how VW cheated, only that they pass the test with the new fix. I find that very hard to believe if you want to expose what they did. They came across as easy to fool clowns in this hearing. No wonder VW thought they could and did fool them for so long.
Why, What, Where is damn important to a investigation. I would demand VW show me every line of code for the cheat device along with the people who wrote it before any negotiations about a 'fix' or they would never be able to sell a spoon in this country.

 

[nsaspook]

Video of the first part of today's hearing. The remarks from Rep. Chris Collins is about 1:48 into the video.
http://www.c-span.org/video/?328599-1/hearing-volkswagen-emissions-violations&live

 

[Astronuc]

Volkswagen Investigation Focus to Include Managers Who Turned a Blind Eye
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/26/b...-include-managers-who-turned-a-blind-eye.html

The number of Volkswagen executives or engineers suspended in connection with the emissions cheating has continued to grow and could soon reach about 10, said the person, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the inquiry is supposed to be confidential. Some of the employees were directly involved in programming cars to cheat on emissions tests, but others may share blame because they found out about it and did not pass the information up the chain of command.

Video of the first part of today's hearing. The remarks from Rep. Chris Collins is about 1:48 into the video.

Chris Collins is an engineer!

 

[nsaspook]

 

[Astronuc]

EPA Finds Additional Audi, Porsche And VW Diesels Faked Emissions
https://www.yahoo.com/autos/epa-finds-audi-porsche-and-more-vw-diesels-faked-185452277.html

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency said its testing uncovered similar software in seven new models equipped with 3-liter V-6 diesels: the 2014 Volkswagen Touareg, 2015 models of the Porsche Cayenne and 2016 models of the Audi A6 Quattro, Audi A7 Quattro, Audi A8 and Audi Q5.

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/19/b...nding-cuts-and-regulatory-deadlines.html?_r=0

FRANKFURT — Volkswagen is expected to announce substantial spending cuts on Friday as the carmaker braces for the financial impact of its emissions-cheating crisis — potentially setting up a confrontation with its powerful labor representatives.

Volkswagen also faces a Friday deadline to inform regulators in the United States of how it plans to bring its diesel cars there into compliance with air-quality standards. The company admitted in September that it had installed software in the cars that was meant to enable the vehicles to cheat on emissions tests.

 

[nsaspook]

Anyone have their VW card yet?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/vw-scandal...car-buyers-what-about-other-countries-1527954

News that Volkswagen has offered $1,000 in credit to 482,000 owners of its scandal-hit diesel cars in the US and Canada has not gone down well in the UK. While owners of cars whose 2-litere four-cyclinder diesel engines implicated in the emissions scandal will get a $500 Visa gift card and a $500 dealership card as well as free 24-hour roadside assistance for three years, customers in the UK will get nothing.

 

[nsaspook]

The VW emissions scandal is mainly the result of physics meeting fiction. In the simplest terms, we have reached the point of de miminis returns in extracting performance from a gallon of diesel while reducing pollutants, at least at reasonable cost. Unsurprisingly, and despite having the greatest research and development program in diesel engines, VW had to cheat to meet current European and U.S. standards. Meeting future tighter diesel standards will prove even more fruitless.

For a significant fraction of the non-compliant diesel cars already in the hands of drivers, there is no real solution. Drivers won’t come in for a fix that compromises performance. Further, solutions which result in net greater CO2 emissions, a regulated pollutant, are inappropriate for CARB to endorse. Retrofitting urea tank systems to small cars is costly and impractical. Some cars may be fixed, but many won’t and will be crushed before they are fixed.

http://www.takepart.com/open-letter-to-california-air-resources-board-chairman-mary-nichols

 

[mheslep]

Im curious what they mean for their trade in offer:

VW is already offering $2,000 to current VW owners to trade in their cars for new vehicles.

What new car? What kind? I assume it must be a gasoline engine vehicle, as a VW diesel that actually complies with US EPA (all the time ) must be very under powered.

 

[nsaspook]

https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate#video&t=124

Skip to about 32 minutes in for the SCR model.

 

[mheslep]

https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate#video&t=124

Skip to about 32 minutes in for the SCR model.

Informative, concise speaker. Any idea of the nature of this "32C3" group/conference?

 

[nsaspook]

Informative, concise speaker. Any idea of the nature of this "32C3" group/conference?

The usual stuff: https://events.ccc.de/congress/2015/wiki/Main_Page

 

[russ_watters]

German automaker Volkswagen Group said Wednesday that when it initially discovered its own emissions scandal it didn't think the issue would cost very much.

The admission — part of a statement designed to show that it did not defraud investors — came as the automaker may be facing tens of billions in U.S. fines and lawsuits, according to analysts.

The company also took the unusual step of disclosing certain details regarding former CEO Martin Winterkorn's knowledge of the emissions violations before they were disclosed to U.S. regulators.

VW cited one unidentified automaker as having paid a $100 million fine in 2014 after certain violations of U.S. emissions laws.

"Volkswagen was advised that in the past" that U.S. emissions penalties "were not especially high for a company the size of Volkswagen," the company said Wednesday in the statement.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/03/02/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/81214726/

Wow.

Lemme translate that into English for you:
"We continue to arrogantly maintain that we are above the law and are genuinely confused as to why we are being punished for breaking laws we don't want to obey. Oh, and we're going to continue to pretend we didn't know about our own scandal while we were doing it."

Did I say, "wow"? Clicking back to page 1 and reading the first few posts of the thread, it looks to me like it was immediately evident to PFers how serious this was (like, maybe the biggest recall/financial loss in the history of cars).

 

[mheslep]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2016/03/02/volkswagen-emissions-scandal/81214726/

Wow.

Lemme translate that into English for you:
"We continue to arrogantly maintain that we are above the law and are genuinely confused as to why we are being punished for breaking laws we don't want to obey. Oh, and we're going to continue to pretend we didn't know about our own scandal while we were doing it."

Did I say, "wow"? Clicking back to page 1 and reading the first few posts of the thread, it looks to me like it was immediately evident to PFers how serious this was (like, maybe the biggest recall/financial loss in the history of cars).

Somebody awhile back posted a video of a well informed German engineer, you may recall, on the subject of VW that explains in part. He suggested that the European legal system has encouraged a got to cheat mentality. The penalties from litigation were so light that if business entered a market competition on the level they were certain to lose to a cheat. The vicious circle of corruption.

 

[russ_watters]

They paid for something they did not receive: a clean burning diesel engine (it is called the "clean diesel"). That's one of VW's major marketing points. A feature that sets them apart from other cars.

Heck, I could even see putative damages for pain and suffering: because of VW, I've been breaking the law and that traumatized me!

So, not the owners, but the FTC is suing on their behalf:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ssion-volkswagen-group-clean-diesel/82376012/

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-qa-volkswagen-scandal-fix-20160421-story.html

It's been seven months since the Volkswagen emissions-cheating scandal broke and the affected cars still aren't fixed.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...code-words-said-to-complicate-emissions-probe

The probe, which was expected to wrap up by the end of April, has been slowed by the use of dozens of code words, including “acoustic software,” for the illicit technology Volkswagen used to turn off pollution controls when cars were on the road, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the investigation is confidential. The obfuscation along with partly insufficient and outdated computer systems made it difficult to find evidence concrete enough to hold individual employees accountable, they said.

 

[nsaspook]

Looks like they are going for the buyback option in the US. Now we know why the deal took so long, that's a huge amount of cash.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-usa-idUSKCN0XH2CX

Volkswagen AG and U.S. officials have reached a framework deal under which the automaker would offer to buy back almost 500,000 diesel cars that used sophisticated software to evade U.S. emission rules, two people briefed on the matter said on Wednesday.

The German automaker is expected to tell a federal judge in San Francisco Thursday that it has agreed to offer to buy back up to 500,000 2.0-liter diesel vehicles sold in the United States, the people said.

 

[russ_watters]

There seems to be some differing accounts:

Volkswagen is said to be close to announcing a deal to compensate U.S. owners of its scandal-afflicted diesel vehicles, as the company approaches a critical federal court hearing Thursday morning without a publicly identified plan to fix those vehicles.

The company is expected to offer individual owners $5,000 apiece as compensation for having been sold cars that pollute more than is legally allowed, according to ahttps://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&hl=en&prev=search&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=de&u=http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article154583238/Betrogene-Kunden-sollen-5000-Dollar-von-VW-erhalten.html&usg=ALkJrhj75tEz5lpayj33bB0q0-N01alhbg.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money...gen-group-emissions-scandal-hearing/83284748/

And:

Separately, http://www.autonews.com/article/20160420/OEM11/160429980/vw-said-to-pay-u-s-customers-5000-as-part-of-diesel-settlement that Volkswagen has also "reached the framework of a deal" to fix cars after EPA regulators rejected a repair plan submitted in January.

Unless Reuters changed their story, that's a mis-paraphrase. The article (though it isn't from Reuters.com) currently (2:07 pm edit time) says the deal is to buy them back.

The USA Today article I saw this morning. Negotiating ploy?