Equations of motion of a particle over a cylinder+conserved quantities

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the conserved quantities and the equations of motion for a particle moving over the surface of a cylinder, utilizing Lagrangian mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • The original poster attempts to derive the equations of motion using the Lagrangian, noting the conservation of generalized momenta. They express confusion regarding the implications of their results, particularly concerning the angular velocity and the role of the radius as a constant.
  • Some participants question the assumptions made about the coordinates, particularly the treatment of the radius as a variable versus a constant, and the implications of gravitational forces on the motion.
  • Others suggest reconsidering the derivation of equations of motion given that one of the generalized coordinates is constant.

Discussion Status

Participants have engaged in clarifying the treatment of the radius and the implications for the equations of motion. Some guidance has been offered regarding the correct interpretation of the coordinates, leading to a consensus that both angular and linear momentum are conserved. The discussion appears to be moving towards resolution, with participants confirming the understanding of the trajectory equations.

Contextual Notes

There is an ongoing discussion about the constraints of the problem, particularly regarding the assumption that the radius is constant and the effects of gravitational forces on the motion of the particle.

fluidistic
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Homework Statement


I must determine the conserved quantities+the equations of motion (of the trajectory in fact) of a particle over the surface of a cylinder.

Homework Equations


Lagrangian and Euler-Lagrange's equations.

The Attempt at a Solution


I've found the Lagrangian of the particle to be [itex]L=\frac{m}{2}(r^2\dot \phi ^2 + \dot z^2)[/itex].
Since the Lagrangian doesn't depend explicitly on [itex]\phi[/itex] nor [itex]z[/itex], the generalized momenta conjugate are conserved (I'm currently having under my eyes Goldstein's book, 1st edition, page 49).
So I can already answer this part of the problem, [itex]P_\phi=k_1[/itex] and [itex]P_z=k_2[/itex].
By intuition I know that the angular momentum is conserved and the speed of the particle along the z axis is constant.
I have a problem however with the Lagrange's equations.
For the generalized coordinate [itex]q=r[/itex] I have that [itex]\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot r}=0[/itex] and [itex]\frac{\partial L}{\partial r}=m r \dot \phi ^2[/itex].
This gives me the first equation of motion, namely [itex]r\dot \phi ^2=0[/itex]. Since [itex]r\neq 0[/itex] (I'm dealing with a cylinder), [itex]\dot \phi =0[/itex].
Similarly, I get for [itex]\phi[/itex]: [itex]\underbrace{2 \dot r \dot \phi}_{=0} + r \ddot \phi =0 \Rightarrow \ddot \phi =0[/itex] which isn't a surprise since I already knew that [itex]\dot \phi=0[/itex].
I also get [itex]\ddot z=0[/itex].
So... the motion equations are [itex]\dot \phi =0[/itex] and [itex]\ddot z=0[/itex]?
I think I made a mistake. If I integrate them I get [itex]\phi = \text{ constant}[/itex] which is obviously wrong.
Hmm I'm confused about what I must do.
Edit: It seems that if I hadn't make any mistake, the motion equations should give me the information I already know: [itex]\dot \phi = constant[/itex] and [itex]\dot z = constant[/itex]. By the way I don't see my mistake for the Lagrange equation regarding [itex]\phi[/itex].
 
Last edited:
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The particle moves over the surface of a cylinder, so r is not a coordinate, but a constant, the radius of the cylinder. The only coordinates are phi and z. Do not derive with respect to r.
If r were a variable too, you should include the term 1/2 m r(dot) ^2 into the kinetic energy.


ehild
 
is there no gravitational force acting on this particle. And since r is constant you cannot consider it to be one of the D.O.F and you can't derive the equation that gives you 0 angular velocity
 
Thank you very much guys, I wasn't aware I shouldn't have derived 3 equations of motion because one of the generalized coordinates was a constant.
So I'm left with [itex]\ddot \phi = \ddot z =0[/itex] which means that both [itex]\dot \phi[/itex] and [itex]\dot z[/itex] are constants.
I realize that [itex]\dot \phi =0[/itex] means that the angular momentum of the particle with respect to the z-axis is conserved. While the z component of the linear momentum of the particle is also conserved.
Integrating the equations of motion, I reach that of course as you said, [itex]r(t)=K[/itex]. Also [itex]\phi(t)=c_2t+c_4[/itex] and [itex]z(t)=c_1t+c_3[/itex].
Thus, [itex]\vec r (t)= \begin{bmatrix} K\\ c_2t+c_4 \\ c_1t+c_3 \end{bmatrix}[/itex].

Is my answer correct considering they asked for the trajectory?
 
It should be OK if there is no force except the constraints.

ehild
 
Thanks for the confirmation. Problem solved.
 

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