Equivalent Diagram- How does counting paths let us eyeball?

Click For Summary
SUMMARY

This discussion focuses on the concept of counting distinct signal paths in block diagrams to determine their equivalence. The participants analyze how the summation of paths and their transformations, such as delays and amplifications, lead to the same output. Specifically, they explore the notation used to represent these paths, such as "4X2" indicating a signal X that has passed through two delays and been amplified by a factor of four. Ultimately, they conclude that all analyzed block diagrams yield equivalent outputs, reinforcing the utility of path counting in signal processing.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of signal processing concepts, including block diagrams and signal paths.
  • Familiarity with delay and amplification in signal transformations.
  • Knowledge of mathematical summation and its application in signal outputs.
  • Basic grasp of notation used in signal processing, such as X, X1, and coefficients like 4.
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the principles of signal path analysis in control systems.
  • Learn about the mathematical representation of signal transformations in block diagrams.
  • Explore the concept of signal equivalence and its implications in circuit design.
  • Study the role of amplifiers and summers in signal processing and their effects on output signals.
USEFUL FOR

Electrical engineers, signal processing students, and professionals involved in circuit design and analysis will benefit from this discussion, particularly those interested in understanding the equivalence of block diagrams through path counting.

LongApple
Messages
68
Reaction score
0


All the youtube links are time stamped
1. Homework Statement



upload_2015-1-28_2-22-23.png

Homework Equations

The Attempt at a Solution


I wrote it out the operator expressions each by hand and got the same result but I don't understand how he is able to just eyeball it. I'm trying to develop some intuition.

a. To start, why is he counting distinct signal paths paths? What is the motivation to see why this information may be useful in letting us eyeball which block diagrams are the same. He mentioned earlier in the video that this could be useful but I didn't understand.

b.

He says something about "making a sum" and seeing "how many of them have the same sum" What does that mean? He then looks for the paths with the biggest delay. I don't see why this info would help us other than to maybe to disprove two block diagrams are different.
^ See time stamped youtube vid

At the very end, he is able to conclude that the answer is 3 but I don't see how we have proof
 
Physics news on Phys.org
In (a) there are 4 paths: X; 4X2; 2X1; another 2X1
In (b) there are 3 paths: X; 4X2; 4X1
In (c) there are 3 paths: X; 4X1; 4X2

The output Y is the sum of these. The result: all are equivalent.

I have used X1 to denote X after one delay

BTW, I haven't looked at the videos.
 
Call the output of every summing junction z
Then,for the 1st circuit,
z[n] = x[n] +2x[n-1]
and y[n] = z[n] + 2z[n-1]
then y[n] = x[n] + 2x[n-1] + 2x[n-1] + 4x[n-2]
= x[n] + 4x[n-1] + 4x[n-2]
You can proceed likewise for the 2nd and 3rd diagram to show y[n] is the same for all three.
 
Last edited:
NascentOxygen said:
In (a) there are 4 paths: X; 4X2; 2X1; another 2X1
In (b) there are 3 paths: X; 4X2; 4X1
In (c) there are 3 paths: X; 4X1; 4X2

The output Y is the sum of these. The result: all are equivalent.

I have used X1 to denote X after one delay

BTW, I haven't looked at the videos.

I have used X1 to denote X after one delay

So for example then, what does 4X2; 4X1 mean? Aren't there 9 paths because you have 4, 4, and 1? What is 4X2 for example? So it seems like based on your notation that would mean 4 times X after 2 delays in part a). Where does this 4 times X after two delays come from?

Is this his method of eyebaling?
 
Those triangles with a number inside denote an amplifier (e.g., a voltage amplifier), they have no effect on the delay.
So I used 4X2 to denote X that has passed through two delays and has had its amplitude multiplied by 4. The order in which that has happened is irrelevant.

The circle with a cross in it represents a summer, its output is the sum of the inputs.
 
So the reason we know it is equivalent by eyeballing is that they all sum to 4X1; 4X2?
 
LongApple said:
So the reason we know it is equivalent by eyeballing is that they all sum to 4X1; 4X2?
Don't forget X. The outputs are all X + 4X1 + 4X2
 
LongApple said:
To start, why is he counting distinct signal paths paths?
Finally I'm at my desktop so can edit your first image to highlight the 4 different paths. Each path delivers X (after some transformation) to the output.

The first shows X after two delays and two gains of x2. The middle figures show two different paths delivering X with a delay and a gain of x2. The lower figure shows a straight-through path delivering X at Y.

upload_1a.jpg
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K