Estimate the voltage you need with this appartus to ionize the atom

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around estimating the voltage required to ionize a hydrogen atom situated between two metal plates connected to a battery. The problem involves concepts from atomic physics and electrostatics, particularly focusing on the relationship between electric fields, dipole moments, and ionization energy.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the relationship between the distance between the plates and the atomic radius, as well as the implications of dipole moments in the context of ionization. There are attempts to derive a formula for voltage based on these concepts, with some questioning the definitions and assumptions used in the calculations.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants exploring different interpretations of the problem and raising concerns about the validity of the approaches taken. Some guidance has been offered regarding the limitations of the assumptions made, particularly in relation to the strength of the electric field and the nature of ionization.

Contextual Notes

There is a lack of clarity regarding the definitions of certain variables, particularly the distance 'd' and its relation to the dipole moment. Participants are also grappling with the implications of ionization as a non-small perturbation, which complicates the analysis.

stunner5000pt
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A hydrogen atom (with Bohr radius of half an angstrom) is situated between 2 metal places 1 mm apart which are connected topoosite terminals of a 500 V battery.
What fraction of the atomic radius does the separation distance d amount to, roughly?

Estimate the voltage you need with this appartus to ionize the atom



For the first part the radius is [itex]5 \times 10^{-11} m[/tex]<br /> the distance between the plates is 0.001 m<br /> divide [itex]5 \times 10^{-11} m/ 0.001 m = 5 \times 10^{-8}[/itex]<br /> <br /> so far so good, right?<br /> <br /> for the second part... since the atom is polarized it has a tiny dipole moment [itex]\vec{p} = \alpha \vec{E}[/itex]<br /> <br /> [tex]p = qd = \alpha \frac{V}{d}[/tex]<br /> so [tex]V = \frac{ q d^2}{\alpha}[/tex]<br /> <br /> is that correct?? <br /> <br /> thank you for your input![/itex]
 
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The argument is not all bad imho, but aren't you confusing the use of symbols here? You haven't defined 'd' in the statement of the problem (:mad: ) but I suspect it is just the distance btw the plates. If we call [itex]\vec{\delta}[/itex] instead the distance caracterizing the dipole moment, we have

[tex]\vec{p}=\alpha\vec{E} \Rightarrow q\delta = \alpha E \Rightarrow V=\frac{qd\delta}{\alpha}[/tex]

and now what? Well we could say that we want V to be such that it induces a dipole moment [itex]q\delta[/itex] such that the work done on the electron in moving a distance [itex]\delta[/itex] parallel to the field is 13.6eV, the ionization energy of the hydrogen atom. So in the end, we need V to be

[tex]V=\frac{qd(-E_0d/qV)}{\alpha}[/tex]

(E_0=-13.6eV)

This argument has a problem though. It is that the proportionality relation btw the field and the induced dipole holds only for weak fields, such that the deformity is not extreme, as it is in this case since we're literally ionizing the thing.

If I were you I would keep thinking for another way of going at this that does not come with such a defect.
 
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im sorry i didnt define d, sorry

well if we're going to ionize an atom (like hydreogen) what is the minimum value of dipole moment :confused: if that exists?
 
How do you mean "minimal value"?

When there is no field, there is no external, there is zero dipole moment, is that what you mean?
 
i can see the problem... but i think they are only caring about small pertubations at least with the tools we are given...
 
ionization is not a small perturbation.

which implies maybe you ought to find a whole other route to the solution.
 

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