Estimator for variance when sampling without replacement

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The discussion centers on finding an unbiased estimator for the population variance when sampling without replacement from a finite population. The initial inquiry highlights the difficulty in locating a suitable formula, contrasting it with the known estimator for sampling with replacement. A participant clarifies that the unbiased estimator for the population variance, when using the sample mean, is given by the formula (n-1/n) * (1/(r-1)) * Σ(x_i - x̄)^2. The conversation emphasizes the distinction between the population mean and the sample mean in the context of variance estimation. Ultimately, the correct formula for the unbiased estimator is provided, addressing the original question.
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Does anyone know the formula for an unbiased estimator of the population variance \frac{1}{n}\sum_{i=1}^{n}(x_i - \bar{x})^2 when taking r samples without replacement from a finite population \{x_1, \dots, x_n\} whose mean is \bar{x}?

A google search doesn't find anything useful other than the the special cases of when r = n the estimator is of course \frac{r-1}{r}s^2, where s^2 = \frac{1}{r-1}\sum_{i=1}^{r}(x_i - \bar{x})^2 which is of course the unbiased estimator when taking r samples with replacement.

I know that a (relatively) simple formula exists, I've seen it somewhere before, just don't remember where.
 
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MaxManus said:

Not that one. That's the distribution for the number of black balls drawn without replacement from a box with black and white balls. It isn't an estimator for the population variance.
 
logarithmic said:
Not that one. That's the distribution for the number of black balls drawn without replacement from a box with black and white balls. It isn't an estimator for the population variance.

But isn't that the distribution you described? And isn't the variance formula on the right table an estimator?
 
MaxManus said:
But isn't that the distribution you described? And isn't the variance formula on the right table an estimator?
Not really. I'm looking for an estimator, that is a function of the samples: f(X_1, ..., X_r) which itself is a random variable, such that E(f(X_1, ..., X_r)) = true population variance.

That variance formula isn't a random variable (i.e. it can't be an estimator), it's the variance of a certain random variable that counts. But a hypergeometric random variable isn't appropriate for measuring the count of the samples since, the number of samples is assumed to be fixed as r.
 
logarithmic said:
Does anyone know the formula for an unbiased estimator of the population variance \frac{1}{n}\sum_{i=1}^{n}(x_i - \bar{x})^2 when taking r samples without replacement from a finite population \{x_1, \dots, x_n\} whose mean is \bar{x}?

Hi logarithmic. With that definition of \bar{x} (which is actually the definition of the population mean) then the unbiased estimator of the population variance is simply,

\frac{1}{r}\sum_{i=1}^{r}(x_i - \bar{x})^2

However I think you really meant for \bar{x} to denote the sample mean of the "r" chosen samples rather than the population mean. In which case unbiased estimator is,

\left(\frac{n-1}{n}\right) \, \frac {1}{r-1}\sum_{i=1}^{r}(x_i - \bar{x})^2
 
Question: A clock's minute hand has length 4 and its hour hand has length 3. What is the distance between the tips at the moment when it is increasing most rapidly?(Putnam Exam Question) Answer: Making assumption that both the hands moves at constant angular velocities, the answer is ## \sqrt{7} .## But don't you think this assumption is somewhat doubtful and wrong?

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