Exploring Hard SF Tactics in Space Combat

[Czcibor]

Thanks. I think i remove algae tanks from my ships too, after all, they have hibernation, they don't need long term life-support for much people.

Hibernation means cheap transport of humans. (which undermines idea of debt bondage)

Anyway:
http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/how_much_oxygen_for_a_person.htm

Less than 1kg of oxygen per head per day... that's not seem to be a big deal...

 

[GTOM]

Recently i read about new japanese laws, that they want to catch drones with bigger drones dragging nets.
I wonder, this, and net thrower weapons should be the way to counter swarms of tiny recon drones?
Or is it realistic, that some pulse weapon only overloads small drones, but not bigger droids with more serious shielding.

I think they should have ground radars so they can fight effectively through common walls.

 

[Drakkith]

Recently i read about new japanese laws, that they want to catch drones with bigger drones dragging nets.
I wonder, this, and net thrower weapons should be the way to counter swarms of tiny recon drones?
Or is it realistic, that some pulse weapon only overloads small drones, but not bigger droids with more serious shielding.

How big are these 'tiny' recon drones?

I think they should have ground radars so they can fight effectively through common walls.

Uh, what?

 

[GTOM]

How big are these 'tiny' recon drones?
Uh, what?

Recon drones, i thought about a few cm-s at most for urban warfare. Smallest, very short range ones, a few mm.
So, i imagined ground penetrating radars for marines, so they can detect enemy beyond walls. (Droids can be detected very clearly, even if they painted radar black they appear as black shadow before background)

 

[Drakkith]

Recon drones, i thought about a few cm-s at most for urban warfare. Smallest, very short range ones, a few mm.

I'm not sure what good nets will do then. You either won't know they are there or they will be too small for nets to do any good. Perhaps try a flyswatter?

So, i imagined ground penetrating radars for marines, so they can detect enemy beyond walls. (Droids can be detected very clearly, even if they painted radar black they appear as black shadow before background)

Perhaps. I did see a short documentary or something on a prototype wall-penetrating radar system being developed for the military that did something similar.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I can't see incredibly expensive, advanced military drones being vulnerable to a fish net! For a start how many drones are designed to flow extremely low? Secondly if you do posit bird sized drones supposed to enter buildings stealthily they're likely to be either fast or difficult to detect. Or third option: designed to attack/call in a strike quickly after target identification.

And terahertz radar is what has been investigated for scanning through walls. It seems to have issues though.

 

[GTOM]

I can't see incredibly expensive, advanced military drones being vulnerable to a fish net! For a start how many drones are designed to flow extremely low? Secondly if you do posit bird sized drones supposed to enter buildings stealthily they're likely to be either fast or difficult to detect. Or third option: designed to attack/call in a strike quickly after target identification.

And terahertz radar is what has been investigated for scanning through walls. It seems to have issues though.

Ok, forget the nets, then pulse weapon, otherwise i thought about low flying drones able to enter into buildings and call fire support after identify target.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

What do you mean "pulse weapon"? As in EMP? I see a few problems with that:

1) AFAIK devices for generating significant EMP are quite large

2) Military shielding for EMP protection is already a thing. I'm pretty sure it's not an anti-electronic panacea

3) It's not a specific weapon. Assuming you did have a portable one that was stronger than available shielding it would take out all the defender equipment too

Also if you're positing sophisticated mini-drones that can identify targets then it makes a lot of sense to put guns on the drone.

 

[GTOM]

I talked about small insect like drones, i don't think they could mount any serious guns, and also serious shielding would sacrifice speed or intelligence. Against bigger armed drones guided missiles are fine. I' m not sure about new type of energy storages, but i think about directed explosive flux, or isotopes ignited with an alfa burst for plasma grenades.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

You know what insects are good at? Stinging. If you have insect drones give them something extremely toxic to inject into targets. Give them behaviours that let them seek out gaps in clothes like many real insects do. Only defence would be to go into combat in airtight suits, release your own insect drones or maybe do the EMP thing.

But of course if you do have an EMP your own unsheilded stuff gets buggered. And the enemy may send in larger drones, say bird size, that are capable of being fitted with small arms. Hell a bird sized drone could be a grenade in itself.

Given the level of technology that you are stipulating (pretty advanced robotics) contests of that kind seem like they'd become a fight between robotic systems.

 

[GTOM]

You know what insects are good at? Stinging. If you have insect drones give them something extremely toxic to inject into targets. Give them behaviours that let them seek out gaps in clothes like many real insects do. Only defence would be to go into combat in airtight suits, release your own insect drones or maybe do the EMP thing.

But of course if you do have an EMP your own unsheilded stuff gets buggered. And the enemy may send in larger drones, say bird size, that are capable of being fitted with small arms. Hell a bird sized drone could be a grenade in itself.

Given the level of technology that you are stipulating (pretty advanced robotics) contests of that kind seem like they'd become a fight between robotic systems.

I had the killer wasp idea too. (Although i consider call fire support to be main weapon.)
Well i imagine an asymmetric battle, that most times favor the one with more advanced technology, but with good terrain, superior numbers, and unwilling to give everything to win or not so great logistics, the not so advanced ones can win, like in Vietnam. (In this case the defenders have superior radar technology, if THZ radars don't have fundamental flaws, they can use them effectively.)
I'm not sure about the (small) bird sized attack drones, they still don't have so good defence and attack, but enough (IR and radar and physical) cross section for small missiles.
I rather thought about the mentioned insect like ones, at least eagle sized ones with missiles, and droids (for maintaining order in captured city, it is useful to be able to mimic every movement of operator.)

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I'm not sure about the (small) bird sized attack drones, they still don't have so good defence and attack, but enough (IR and radar and physical) cross section for small missiles.

And humans are vulnerable to bullets but we don't stop fighting. As flippant as that sounds there are any number of possible counter-measures but that doesn't mean they are a golden bullet, particularly in the case of "small missiles" I imagine there would issues of being able to accurately hit the target. Bird sized drones seem the type of thing to deploy in close-in environments i.e. in urban/buildings. Unless your missiles are also essentially bird drones it's hard to see how they would have the maneuverability in awkward places to hit the drones.

It seems more likely to me that IF you have such sophisticated robotics technology then a counter to drones is sentry guns. Set up something that can identify, target and fire at drones. The drones would likely shoot back and now you have a conflict decided by better technology and numbers.

As for asymmetric fighting, remind me isn't your setting a domed city on Mars or something? Because that seems to pose serious issues for anyone attempting guerilla warfare. Firstly there's no hills, forest or anywhere else to run to. If you're outside it would be pretty easy to spot you. That means you're hiding inside, in an urban environment. And urban environments, particularly high tech ones, tend to come with some pretty sophisticated infrastructure that is amenable to surveillance. I'm not just talking cameras (and if you have drones as sophisticated as you say cameras with facial/biometric recognition are going to be available), everything from using your travel card on public transport to accessing your emails is going to be immediately traceable.

Personally I think it's much more believable that the guerillas in this situation do have access to some advanced technology, perhaps left over from the fallen government intelligence services. Things that can enable them to live and hide in an urban world without tripping sensors.

 

[GTOM]

And humans are vulnerable to bullets but we don't stop fighting. As flippant as that sounds there are any number of possible counter-measures but that doesn't mean they are a golden bullet, particularly in the case of "small missiles" I imagine there would issues of being able to accurately hit the target. Bird sized drones seem the type of thing to deploy in close-in environments i.e. in urban/buildings. Unless your missiles are also essentially bird drones it's hard to see how they would have the maneuverability in awkward places to hit the drones.

It seems more likely to me that IF you have such sophisticated robotics technology then a counter to drones is sentry guns. Set up something that can identify, target and fire at drones. The drones would likely shoot back and now you have a conflict decided by better technology and numbers.

As for asymmetric fighting, remind me isn't your setting a domed city on Mars or something? Because that seems to pose serious issues for anyone attempting guerilla warfare. Firstly there's no hills, forest or anywhere else to run to. If you're outside it would be pretty easy to spot you. That means you're hiding inside, in an urban environment. And urban environments, particularly high tech ones, tend to come with some pretty sophisticated infrastructure that is amenable to surveillance. I'm not just talking cameras (and if you have drones as sophisticated as you say cameras with facial/biometric recognition are going to be available), everything from using your travel card on public transport to accessing your emails is going to be immediately traceable.

Personally I think it's much more believable that the guerillas in this situation do have access to some advanced technology, perhaps left over from the fallen government intelligence services. Things that can enable them to live and hide in an urban world without tripping sensors.

I intend to write the situation when they want to capture the city at first place. Ok, i think i reconsider the small bird sized ones, but i think they will be still vulnerable, with the radars they can detect them through walls, and launch the missile just before the drone turn around a street corner or enter into a building, so it can't just hide behind a wall, and a small missile (manuevering rocket instead of fins) is even more agile.
About the city, now i think a realistic design would be cellular, so not a big dome, but make lots of airtight family houses sorrounding an inner greenhouse, and cover streets with lead glass. Yes it is easy to unair streets, but every combatman have light spandex spacesuit.
Sentry guns good for defence, yes but not for counter attacks and combat tactics.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

I intend to write the situation when they want to capture the city at first place. Ok, i think i reconsider the small bird sized ones, but i think they will be still vulnerable, with the radars they can detect them through walls, and launch the missile just before the drone turn around a street corner or enter into a building, so it can't just hide behind a wall, and a small missile (manuevering rocket instead of fins) is even more agile.

You might want to look into TeraHertz radar. It's somewhat capable of peeking through walls but AFAIK it's not got a huge range. I'm not sure it can be used to look at a distance, down the street, through several houses, around a corner and pick out a tiny bird. Also remember that if one drone is taken out the other's in the vicinity will know and likely get a recording of what the attack was and where from. The soldiers overseeing the drones would likely then deploy them in a manner to counter the threat.

About the city, now i think a realistic design would be cellular, so not a big dome, but make lots of airtight family houses sorrounding an inner greenhouse, and cover streets with lead glass. Yes it is easy to unair streets, but every combatman have light spandex spacesuit.
Sentry guns good for defence, yes but not for counter attacks and combat tactics.

Rename "Sentry gun" to "Sentry drone" and I can't see why it isn't good for counter attacks and combat tactics (although I have virtually no idea what you mean by that beyond using it for other things than fixed defence).

 

[GTOM]

You might want to look into TeraHertz radar. It's somewhat capable of peeking through walls but AFAIK it's not got a huge range. I'm not sure it can be used to look at a distance, down the street, through several houses, around a corner and pick out a tiny bird. Also remember that if one drone is taken out the other's in the vicinity will know and likely get a recording of what the attack was and where from. The soldiers overseeing the drones would likely then deploy them in a manner to counter the threat.

Rename "Sentry gun" to "Sentry drone" and I can't see why it isn't good for counter attacks and combat tactics (although I have virtually no idea what you mean by that beyond using it for other things than fixed defence).

But if the enemies are robots they will have much bigger radar cross section than soldiers (where only body-water and gun reflects well the waves)
Yes, after a shot, one has to quickly relocate, while still try to hide, maintain some formation, through walls laser comms don't work, radio can be jammed, defenders don't have that many highly intelligent robots. (Of course they also use small recon drones, hidden cameras etc)

(Of course radars can be also jammed, but the less radio traffic the less able the enemy is able to counter it, emit monopulses with radars change location, frequency etc)

 

[Ryan_m_b]

But if the enemies are robots they will have much bigger radar cross section than soldiers (where only body-water and gun reflects well the waves)

Ah but machines have other options for stealthing themselves and it seems like there is already research into stealthing from THz radar:
Flexible metamaterial absorbers for stealth applications at terahertz frequencies

Yes, after a shot, one has to quickly relocate, while still try to hide, maintain some formation, through walls laser comms don't work, radio can be jammed, defenders don't have that many highly intelligent robots. (Of course they also use small recon drones, hidden cameras etc)

Possibly the best way to do this is to employ a human shield approach. It's an urban environment after all, hide in crowds or public areas. If you've just fired a missile to take out a drone running into a building full of people might be a good way to partially evade attackers. An issue to bear in mind is that in the type of environment this seems to be (essentially all in doors with limited avenues to move between areas) it would be easy for an invading army to section off areas. Roadblocks in the connecting tunnels, streets etc would be very effective. Especially since such a settlement is likely to have some sort of emergency doors that slam down in event of atmosphere leak.

 

[GTOM]

Ah but machines have other options for stealthing themselves and it seems like there is already research into stealthing from THz radar:
Flexible metamaterial absorbers for stealth applications at terahertz frequencies
Possibly the best way to do this is to employ a human shield approach. It's an urban environment after all, hide in crowds or public areas. If you've just fired a missile to take out a drone running into a building full of people might be a good way to partially evade attackers. An issue to bear in mind is that in the type of environment this seems to be (essentially all in doors with limited avenues to move between areas) it would be easy for an invading army to section off areas. Roadblocks in the connecting tunnels, streets etc would be very effective. Especially since such a settlement is likely to have some sort of emergency doors that slam down in event of atmosphere leak.

Yes i thought about radar camofluege also, that is where the defenders have superior technology, human image processing is also an important part, to recognize a small change to be a robot, not some "snow" created by jammers, chaff, bullet marks, bombings, ferrite dust in thin air etc. So ok, the radars have a pretty limited range, but give some advantage to humans.
Use human shield like terrorists? :( I don't want that, they should keep civilans safe.
Yes the city should have this emergency doors, they can construct road blocks too, but defenders also have explosives.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Yes i thought about radar camofluege also, that is where the defenders have superior technology, human image processing is also an important part, to recognize a small change to be a robot, not some "snow" created by jammers, chaff, bullet marks, bombings, ferrite dust in thin air etc. So ok, the radars have a pretty limited range, but give some advantage to humans.

One big advantage you could give the defenders that doesn't really on complicated fancy technology is that they will have control of their own infrastructure at first. Surveillance cameras, environmental sensors, pressure doors, trains, climate control etcetera etcetera could all be used to defender advantage. The attackers would have to combat this by isolating these systems and installing their own controls (or capturing people with relevant access).

Use human shield like terrorists? :( I don't want that, they should keep civilans safe.

Firstly from the perspective of the invaders what you're talking about can be perceived as terrorism. But skipping past that can of worms it's simpler to say that I don't mean human shields in a malicious way, but once the invasion is over and the occupation is in force insurgent groups could hide in public places in order to lose their pursuers.

Yes the city should have this emergency doors, they can construct road blocks too, but defenders also have explosives.

Explosives seem dangerous in a sealed environment.

 

[Drakkith]

Explosives seem dangerous in a sealed environment.

What weapon isn't?

 

[GTOM]

One big advantage you could give the defenders that doesn't really on complicated fancy technology is that they will have control of their own infrastructure at first. Surveillance cameras, environmental sensors, pressure doors, trains, climate control etcetera etcetera could all be used to defender advantage. The attackers would have to combat this by isolating these systems and installing their own controls (or capturing people with relevant access).
Firstly from the perspective of the invaders what you're talking about can be perceived as terrorism. But skipping past that can of worms it's simpler to say that I don't mean human shields in a malicious way, but once the invasion is over and the occupation is in force insurgent groups could hide in public places in order to lose their pursuers.
Explosives seem dangerous in a sealed environment.

I'm focusing on the battle where the droids try to capture the city in the first place. Humans evacuate the suburbs (many humans can take shelter in the megastructures) and let the battle unair them (they will fight in light spacesuit or in powered armor). Yes homeground, infrastructure will be a definite advantage.
There will be another battle, after planet is liberated in red army style, and they really have to fight in a civil environment (against someone who sold girls after he got free hand against terrorists...)

Sealed environment, a rotating asteroid colony (space station) is a quite fragile one. I think they won't use grenades there, however if the colony is wrapped in self repairing material (http://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/nasa-selfhealing-material-can-repair-itself-two-seconds-after-being-shot-by-a-bullet/news-story/9e2062829faa5cc953832dfb9f076d69) against micrometeors (like ISS is wrapped in thick kevlar) they can still use bullets.

Another type of combat i thought about is asteroid tunnel fighting. The pirates want to capture a weapon research colony after it just withstanded a great attack.
With the help of third party they send a big cargo ship full of supplies... then attackers emerge from the crates and get inside the rock, and get control over surface defences (lascannons moving on tracks). Then the arriving fleet eliminates the rest of the defenders.

 

[GTOM]

And humans are vulnerable to bullets but we don't stop fighting. As flippant as that sounds there are any number of possible counter-measures but that doesn't mean they are a golden bullet, particularly in the case of "small missiles" I imagine there would issues of being able to accurately hit the target. Bird sized drones seem the type of thing to deploy in close-in environments i.e. in urban/buildings. Unless your missiles are also essentially bird drones it's hard to see how they would have the maneuverability in awkward places to hit the drones.

Otherwise as far as i know, IR reflects well from walls, doesn't that mean, that they can detect a drone behind walls before it arrives at a corner, due to IR reflected from a house?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

How hot is a drone? How hot is a human? Can you find any reference to IR cameras (they exist now) being used in this manner? You should be able to find all kinds of footage of this sort of situation. And to repeat an earlier point: if you really want your defenders to have some sort of "shoot round walls technology" as you seem to be why not simply give them access to the city's surveillance network?

Also on another note: avoid using the term droid, especially if you want to sell this work or even post it publicly online. The term is not generic, it's a copyrighted term owned by Lucas film (now owned by Disney) and they have a history of suing others that use it.

 

[GTOM]

The attack bots surely take out any cameras they can find at the invasion of the city.

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=237

I found this one about IR detection emission and reflect. It says clay and glaver has low emissivity (40%) thus high reflectivity (60%). Bricks are basically clay. Although the place is on Mars, but it think something similar can be used as building material.
Drones needs thrusters in thin martian air, they are hot things.
(Walkers of course less warm.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(robot)

It says the term android is widely used, hmm so i can use it even if they don't look like humans? (I think they should have a scary look, but terminator surely reserved)

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The attack bots surely take out any cameras they can find at the invasion of the city.

Maybe but this assumes they know where they all are. Also as I said earlier in thread your setting is a space colony, it's going to need to have sensors up the wazoo! Humidity, pressure, temperature, atmospheric concentrations, radiation, audio, visual etcetera etcetera. Given that all of that is necessary for keeping the environment safe and functioning the attackers might not want to take it out (at least not as a general rule) given that they aim to keep things running when they have control.

http://www.stevequayle.com/index.php?s=237

I found this one about IR detection emission and reflect. It says clay and glaver has low emissivity (40%) thus high reflectivity (60%). Bricks are basically clay. Although the place is on Mars, but it think something similar can be used as building material.
Drones needs thrusters in thin martian air, they are hot things.
(Walkers of course less warm.)

UAVs don't make much sense in such thin atmosphere. I could see using them inside (maybe) but for anything else if they have the technology walking drones would be better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(robot)

It says the term android is widely used, hmm so i can use it even if they don't look like humans? (I think they should have a scary look, but terminator surely reserved)

Android means human like so your readers will expect that I'd imagine. As for being terminator like things can be made scary and kept functional.

 

[Drakkith]

Otherwise as far as i know, IR reflects well from walls, doesn't that mean, that they can detect a drone behind walls before it arrives at a corner, due to IR reflected from a house?

They might be able to see the reflections of IR off of the surrounding walls, which would let them know something hot is coming, but it's akin to watching for the reflection of light from mounted lightbulbs in the dark. You know something is there, but you don't necessarily know exactly what, where, how big, or how many.

Of course, hot industrial machinery, heating systems, and any other source of heat would render this mostly ineffective.

 

[GTOM]

Maybe but this assumes they know where they all are. Also as I said earlier in thread your setting is a space colony, it's going to need to have sensors up the wazoo! Humidity, pressure, temperature, atmospheric concentrations, radiation, audio, visual etcetera etcetera. Given that all of that is necessary for keeping the environment safe and functioning the attackers might not want to take it out (at least not as a general rule) given that they aim to keep things running when they have control.
UAVs don't make much sense in such thin atmosphere. I could see using them inside (maybe) but for anything else if they have the technology walking drones would be better.
Android means human like so your readers will expect that I'd imagine. As for being terminator like things can be made scary and kept functional.

Good points. If the systems give defenders a definite advantage the bots are ordered to take them out, the suburbs loose air and lots of soldiers die anyway, the rest of city will be enough for rest of people more or less. I thought high speed, ability to attack upper floors can make flyers useful, at least for support role.
Droid reserved, space marine reserved now, terminator reserved, android, walker improper, what is next? There has to be a term for humanoid combat bots.

 

[Drakkith]

Droid reserved, space marine reserved now, terminator reserved, android, walker improper, what is next? There has to be a term for humanoid combat bots.

As far as I know, only the term Droid is trademarked or patented or whatever the right word is. Space Marine certainly isn't reserved, nor are terminators, androids, walkers, etc.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Good points. If the systems give defenders a definite advantage the bots are ordered to take them out, the suburbs loose air and lots of soldiers die anyway, the rest of city will be enough for rest of people more or less. I thought high speed, ability to attack upper floors can make flyers useful, at least for support role.

There can still be some flying drones and general support aircraft, I'm just saying that if walking drones are available and effective then they have more advantages than flying drones in closed-in environments with thin atmosphere.

Droid reserved, space marine reserved now, terminator reserved, android, walker improper, what is next? There has to be a term for humanoid combat bots.

As Drakkith said only "droid" is a copyrighted term.

 

[GTOM]

As far as I know, only the term Droid is trademarked or patented or whatever the right word is. Space Marine certainly isn't reserved, nor are terminators, androids, walkers, etc.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2013/02/trademark-bully-thwarted-spots-space-marine-back-online

Ok, so space marines really not reserved. Then i make a new mosaic word with parts of humanoid robot.

 

[GTOM]

You said that i shouldn't view EMP as anti-electronic placenta. Ok bigger robots sure have enough protection, while even most traditionalist humans have pretty much electronics too, visors, powered armors with neural interface (and systems that sense pressure inside if limbs are moved) radars (waves reflected by a metal plate some distance from soldier, so if enemy sense the emission, they don't learn exact position of soldier) etc.
But is there any way of more effective electronic countermeasure, that requires only minor magitech? I read somewhere that cosmic rays can affect electronics, turn over a single bit could crash a program. While there are countermeasures for it, but if multiple Cpus programs have to check each other, than robots would be hindered.