Expressing Neurodivergency Obstacle in Grad School Personal Statements

[Vanadium 50]

Certainly demography is a factor, and certainly universities will adapt in different ways. It was always thus. Harvard will weather this. The universities that will be in the most trouble will the ones with small endowments and whose selling point is that it's a good place to drink beer and watch football. But they tend not to be places with active cosmology programs. Maybe cosmetology.

My objection is that it's really not true that you need top graduate from a "big name" to get a faculty position. Maybe in some fields, but no so much in physics.

 

[gleem]

We have not discussed letters of recommendation and physics or math GREs. Will professors of five years ago remember you well enough? Since your ADHD treatment occurred after leaving college they cannot vouch for your improvement. Your improvement evidence in the GRE may be weak as your improvement should improve by taking it multiple times.

Contrary to Walt Disney's maxim "If you can dream it you can do it" it is not something you can take to the bank. The best evidence for a desirable outcome is to stand in favorably compared to the competition.

As for plan B have you considered experimental physics? You will most likely have more skills that will be of more value in industry if plan A does not work out.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Contrary to Walt Disney's maxim "If you can dream it you can do it" it is not something you can take to the bank.

One mighty even question whether it makes sense to take advice from a frozen head in a jar.

We have not discussed letters of recommendation

I did mention that. GREs are also an issue. The OP attributes his low grades to his ADHD, but it could just as easily have been low grades because of less learning because of the ADHD. Which will show up in other places.

A PhD looks difficult, but not impossible. Some of the gpals beyond that look unrealistic.

 

[gleem]

This might be useful

University	Applied	Accepted	Enrolled	Awarded MS	Awarded PhD
U of Minnesota,	76	30	28	16	17
U of Colorado	865	216	66	23	21
U of Michigan	666	87	22	22	23
U of Oregon	10	10	n/a (10?)	10	14
U of Cal S.C.	238	42	9	7	7

Source: https://www.petersons.com/graduate-schools/ Searched: acceptance rate Univesity graduate physics program

 

[StatGuy2000]

I think you need a Plan B.

Your issue is not just getting into grad school with a less than stellar record. Its doing this and getting a permanent position in one of (if not the) most competitive areas in physics. With a less than stellar record.

You mentioned a dozen names (and by the way, do not mess up the name of a university when applying - it's the University of Colorado, not University of Boulder). Let's say there are twice as many in this field. This is generous, because many of the people on your list are not doing theoretical cosmology full time, but lets use x2. That's 24. Assuming a professor's career lasts on average 25 years, the number of positions opening per year averages to one.

Are you the best in the world? Or even the second best?

Because it's a hot field now, these folks are cranking out graduate students. These are your competition. As they start populating physics and astronomy departments, the need for cosmologists will drop. Departments will hire people who do AMO, or solid state, or biophysics, etc. On average you are looking at finding a job 14 years from now, and in that intervening 14 years departments aren't standing still. They are filling their ranks.

The questions you pose may not even be interesting 14 years from now. There may be other questions deemed more interesting or more urgent.

If it takes you more than the average time, as your history suggests it might, this just gets worse.

Put another way, there are perhaps 10,000 people out there in a position as good or better than yours, and one job. Maybe zero jobs.

You need a Plan B.

@Vanadium 50 , I have a few follow-up questions:

1. What Plan B would you recommend to the OP, if asked? The OP did state that they are 34 years old and out of university for 5 years. I have no idea what they do for work, and so am wondering what options are available.

2. On a separate note, you state that cosmology is a hot field now, and as physics departments fill them, they will look to hire people who specialize in AMO, solid state, or biophysics (among other specialties). This leads me to wonder -- given the time it takes for students to finish their PhDs, what would you advise current physics majors considering further graduate studies, in terms of areas of research?

 

[gmax137]

given the time it takes for students to finish their PhDs, what would you advise current physics majors considering further graduate studies, in terms of areas of research?

This relates to a question I've had: how locked in is a person's post-PhD work to the subject of their dissertation? Are academics expected to just carry on with their PhD research, delving ever deeper?

My exposure was outside of academia. In industry the details of the PhD subject itself were less important than the self-discipline and research skills demonstrated by completing the PhD. Another way of saying this is, learning goes on throughout your career, with many varied twists and turns.

 

[gleem]

This relates to a question I've had: how locked in is a person's post-PhD work to the subject of their dissertation? Are academics expected to just carry on with their PhD research, delving ever deeper?

I would think considering one usually takes a postdoc if you are looking for an academic appointment and are expected to hit the ground running and on obtaining a faculty position need to publish profusely to get tenure you are pretty much locked into your dissertation field.

 

[jtbell]

My dissertation advisor changed fields from experimental HEP to biophysics. He started out by collaborating with a biophysicist in the department and learning the field "on the side" while finishing his last projects in the HEP group. This was around the time I was finishing my PhD. I was his last HEP grad student.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This might be useful

I am not sure how seriously to take those numbers. Accepting 10 students and granting 14 of them PhDs seems implausible.

Colorado is a huge department. Maybe 100 faculty. Even so, enrolling 66 students seems like a lot, especially of only a third of them graduate.

While I am sure these numbers mean something, I am not so sure they even mean the same thing line by line.

What Plan B would you recommend to the OP, if asked?

It's his life, not mine. That's his decision. My point - which you seem to disagree with - is that the odds of a university creating a pure theoretical cosmology position (the first in at least 30 years) just for him are slim.

what would you advise current physics majors considering further graduate studies, in terms of areas of research?

I would advise them not to try and predict what is hot. If they can do that, they should go into commodities trading, make a fortunate, and donate it toi a university under the condition they make you a professor.

 

[Vanadium 50]

This relates to a question I've had: how locked in is a person's post-PhD work to the subject of their dissertation?

A postdoc is an opportunity to broaden ones' expertise, but the person hiring the postdoc expects them to know something, so the motion has its limits. My thesis was on a fixed target experiment, I did a postdoc ona collider, then during my career was on two other collider experiments, and finally back to fixed target.

All were experimental HEP or nuclear. I got an offer to do particle astrophysics. I would not expect to have been able to transition to, say condensed matter theory. What would I be bringing to the table?

If I recall @ZapperZ story correctly, his thesis was in condensed matter, which made him an expert in photocathodes, which got him into accelerator physics.

There certainly are people that do the same thing over and over again for their entire careers. Not my style, and you run the risk that if you actually settle an issue, you may find yourself out of a job.

 

[StatGuy2000]

It's his life, not mine. That's his decision. My point - which you seem to disagree with - is that the odds of a university creating a pure theoretical cosmology position (the first in at least 30 years) just for him are slim.

I never said that the odds of a university creating a theoretical cosmology position just for the OP are good. So I would advise you not to put words in my mouth.

You stated that the OP needs a Plan B. So I was asking what practical options does the OP have, in your opinion. What decisions the OP take are entirely their own.

I would advise them not to try and predict what is hot. If they can do that, they should go into commodities trading, make a fortune, and donate it to a university under the condition they make you a professor.

Okay, let me give you a practical example. Let's say an undergraduate physics student comes to you, and states that she is interested in further graduate studies, with a particular interest in theoretical HEP (an area that I assume is not "hot" at the moment).

Would you try to advise her to choose a different field? Or would you encourage her to proceed?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm not sure how your "practical example" helps the OP. In general, I try to tell my students to look around and see who got jobs and who didn't. For example, I can think of one postdoc who co-wrote an extremely influential paper (~350 cites) but did not get a faculty job. This happens.

But getting back to the question at hand. I cam up with five people who got university positions doing pure theoretical cosmology. (I missed one and came up with a sixth) They are in their 70s and 80s now, so got their positions 30-40 years ago. Do you think the OP should know this? I sure do.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I'm not sure how your "practical example" helps the OP. In general, I try to tell my students to look around and see who got jobs and who didn't. For example, I can think of one postdoc who co-wrote an extremely influential paper (~350 cites) but did not get a faculty job. This happens.

Please note that I am not just taking into account faculty jobs, but industrial jobs post-PhD as well.
(I should also note that people who got faculty jobs now does not necessarily reflect who will get them in the future.)

And my "practical example" was not just directed at the OP, but more towards current students studying physics.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I know of zero students I have worked with - and I've worked with many - who were unable to find a job somewhere. The closest was one student who decided she would rather be a stay-at-home mom. Her choice.

However, one can't be too picky. We had a person here a few years back who didn't want to do defense/government, or tech, or finance and wanted to live in a certain geographical area. That could be a bit tough.

 

[CrysPhys]

Please note that I am not just taking into account faculty jobs, but industrial jobs post-PhD as well.
(I should also note that people who got faculty jobs now does not necessarily reflect who will get them in the future.)

And my "practical example" was not just directed at the OP, but more towards current students studying physics.

This was my previous response to a similar question:

If you do pursue a PhD in physics, I'll repeat the perspective I've offered many times here: the PhD is not necessarily a means to an end; it can be an end in itself. This is different, e.g., from going to med school or law school. If you do a PhD in physics, you should be motivated by the research in and of itself. After you complete your PhD, you move on. To what exactly is uncertain; too many unknowns. Maybe you'll continue your research as a postdoc and later as a professor; maybe not. Maybe you'll land an R&D position in an industry or government lab; maybe not. Maybe you'll switch out of physics entirely. Whatever the outcome, you don't want to beat yourself up, "Why did I spend all those years getting a PhD in physics? I didn't get the career I had hoped for. Instead, I'm working in X."

And remember, even if you initially get the career you had hoped for, a lot can change in the decades to come, both professionally and personally. So you need to be flexible and adaptable, The ability to pivot is essential.

Further comment. Suppose the following hypo:

* Specialties A have a high probability of leading to long-term careers in A;

* The student is not at all interested in A;

* The student is strongly interested in specialties B; and

* Specialties B have a low probability of leading to long-term careers in B.

I would advise the student to pursue a PhD in B, if they can accept the consequences I discussed above. If they can't, I would advise them not to pursue a PhD at all. In particular, I would not advise them to pursue a PhD in A.

 

[StatGuy2000]

This was my previous response to a similar question:



Further comment. Suppose the following hypo:

* Specialties A have a high probability of leading to long-term careers in A;

* The student is not at all interested in A;

* The student is strongly interested in specialties B; and

* Specialties B have a low probability of leading to long-term careers in B.

I would advise the student to pursue a PhD in B, if they can accept the consequences I discussed above. If they can't, I would advise them not to pursue a PhD at all. In particular, I would not advise them to pursue a PhD in A.

@CrysPhys, while I agree with the general thrust of your response here (and in similar past responses), the issue I'm raising is that for those pursuing an undergraduate physics degree, further graduate studies are almost always required to pursue any type of career.

For example, I have heard people talk of people with physics degrees working as engineers, but how many of them were able to do so with just a BS? Probably very few.

The logical consequence of your argument in your hypothetical above is that a student should not even pursue a BS in physics at all, if they cannot accept the consequences you outlined earlier. So people with an interest in the physical sciences are wasting their times with physics degrees -- they might as well pursue a degree in, say, computer science, electrical engineering, or some other quantitative field (even including certain business degrees).

 

[StatGuy2000]

As for the OP:

Going on about 5 years now, finished in 2019.


Seven years. I know that sounds a bit lengthy, but I walked onto campus not even capable of doing high school algebra.


Well, I actually have two undergraduate degrees already. (B.S. astrophysics, B.A. mathematics)
While the idea of shouldering an additional chunk of debt for a third degree is unappealing, I would certainly consider it if it meant my chances of working towards a PhD in cosmology were non-zero.


Funny I didn't see this earlier - I've actually owned that book for quite some time now! That and Steven Weinberg's 'Cosmology' are my go-to reading material when donating plasma every week.

So you have finished two undergraduate degrees 5 years ago, and you have a GPA of 3.2. As far as I'm concerned, the prospects of you being accepted into any graduate program in physics are low to none. Even the prospect of earning another undergraduate degree in physics to feed this dream of yours is more than likely a waste.

As @Vanadium 50 stated you need to re-consider this whole approach. If you are interested in further physics studies, the best you can hope for is to study and read papers as a hobby.

If I may ask, what have you done during the 5 years since your two undergraduate degrees? What type of job/career are you involved in?

 

[Vanadium 50]

I have heard people talk of people with physics degrees working as engineers, but how many of them were able to do so with just a BS? Probably very few.

Anecdotes are not statistics. Your username isn't AnecdoteGuy for a reason. We are getting off topic, but...

The AIP published period studies with graphs like this:
View attachment 1707314917247.webp

You can see that the majority find jobs, and they find jobs in industry. Yes, they may not find jobs as physicists, but history bachelors holders don't find joibs as historians, English majors don't find jobs as poets, etc.

The person in my graduating class with the highest starting salary got a job writing technical documentation for a Fortune 100 company. I see this as a success, not a failure.

 

[gleem]

If I may ask, what have you done during the 5 years since your two undergraduate degrees? What type of job/career are you involved in?

This I am sure the admission committee would also like to know. You will have probably lost a step or two to the competition. And what have you done to prove your worthiness since the initiation of your treatment? Your feeling that you can so significantly better seems no different than a New Year's resolution. We haven't talked about an MS degree to test your ability and resolve. This is obviously at best a sideways move in your quest but it would answer the big question. Then there is the problem of who will take an old MS student into their program.

 

[CrysPhys]

Anecdotes are not statistics. Your username isn't AnecdoteGuy for a reason. We are getting off topic, but...

The AIP published period studies with graphs like this:
View attachment 339931

You can see that the majority find jobs, and they find jobs in industry. Yes, they may not find jobs as physicists, but history bachelors holders don't find joibs as historians, English majors don't find jobs as poets, etc.

The person in my graduating class with the highest starting salary got a job writing technical documentation for a Fortune 100 company. I see this as a success, not a failure.

@StatGuy2000: In addition to the graph cited by V50, also look at

"Who's Hiring Physics Bachelors" https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/whos-hiring-physics-bachelors

and

"Physics Trends: Common Titles for New Physics Bachelors" https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/physics-trends-common-job-titles-for-new-physics-bachelors

So there are many options for students who complete a bachelor's in physics, but choose not to enroll in a PhD physics program.

ETA: As one example, I know a guy who stopped with a BS Physics and is making a lucrative career as a private tutor (multiple subjects, not just physics) in the greater New York City metro area; this area has a large supply of rich parents with dumb kids, and the parents desire to have them enroll in Ivy's.

 

[gleem]

So there are many options for students who complete a bachelor's in physics, but choose not to enroll in a PhD physics program

Only about 20% of the 8500 physics BS graduates go on to obtain a Ph.D. in Physics.

 

[gmax137]

The general idea is to complete the PhD and earn a position at a professional research institution or university with the intention of a full-fledged career in academia as a researcher or professor.

Of course. I'd say at least 90% of physics/astro undergrads would say the same. I hope this thread has helped you realize that very few of those undergrads get their wish. That's what Plan B is all about. We've had many threads here where the OP eventually says, if they can't do that, then forget it! I think that's tragic. There are many other paths thru life.

 

[Vanadium 50]

this area has a large supply of rich parents with dumb kids, and the parents desire to have them enroll in Ivy's.

"Heavens! Boopsie might have to go to...<shudder>...Cornell!"

 

[StatGuy2000]

@StatGuy2000: In addition to the graph cited by V50, also look at

"Who's Hiring Physics Bachelors" https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/whos-hiring-physics-bachelors

and

"Physics Trends: Common Titles for New Physics Bachelors" https://ww2.aip.org/statistics/physics-trends-common-job-titles-for-new-physics-bachelors

So there are many options for students who complete a bachelor's in physics, but choose not to enroll in a PhD physics program.

ETA: As one example, I know a guy who stopped with a BS Physics and is making a lucrative career as a private tutor (multiple subjects, not just physics) in the greater New York City metro area; this area has a large supply of rich parents with dumb kids, and the parents desire to have them enroll in Ivy's.

I have looked at the links that you have provided above, along with what @Vanadium 50 has provided, which show where recent physics graduates have been hired.

The AIP links above do not present the following information:

1. How many of these people obtained these positions solely with a bachelors degree in physics, versus those who completed a bachelor's degree in physics, plus a graduate degree in another discipline, such as electrical engineering or computer science.

2. How many of these physics bachelors in fact double-majored in physics and another field (e.g. computer science) or pursued a degree in interdisciplinary physics programs like engineering physics.

 

[gleem]

1. How many of these people obtained these positions solely with a bachelors degree in physics, versus those who completed a bachelor's degree in physics, plus a graduate degree in another discipline, such as electrical engineering or computer science.

According to the AIP, 20% of BS physicists enter graduate programs in other fields.

 

[CrysPhys]

The AIP links above do not present the following information:

1. How many of these people obtained these positions solely with a bachelors degree in physics, versus those who completed a bachelor's degree in physics, plus a graduate degree in another discipline, such as electrical engineering or computer science.

2. How many of these physics bachelors in fact double-majored in physics and another field (e.g. computer science) or pursued a degree in interdisciplinary physics programs like engineering physics.

* The three AIP links previously cited are for NEW physics bachelors. So they would not include students who had previously completed a bachelor's in physics and then completed a graduate degree in another field (a presumably more employable field, if I get your drift). Now if you want to argue that they could include students who previously completed a graduate degree in another field, returned for a BS physics, and then immediately sought a job, go right ahead. Not a likely scenario in the US, where many universities won't accept students for a second undergrad degree if they've already completed one. And from the various threads here, students who would pursue such a path are those who regret their first choice and want a PhD in physics, not just a bachelor's.

* Finer granularity with respect to double majors and what is included as a "physics" degree is not called out. But that's generally the case in such surveys for any major.

* Regardless of such fine distinctions, your previous logical conclusion

The logical consequence of your argument in your hypothetical above is that a student should not even pursue a BS in physics at all, if they cannot accept the consequences you outlined earlier. So people with an interest in the physical sciences are wasting their times with physics degrees -- they might as well pursue a degree in, say, computer science, electrical engineering, or some other quantitative field (even including certain business degrees).

doesn't hold. There is a future for students who complete a bachelor's in physics but not a PhD in physics.

* Also, I did a quick search of job post listings. If a bachelor's degree in a particular field is required or preferred, the post will so state. If experience in a particular field is required or preferred, it will so state. So if a post simply specifies that a BS in EE, CS, or physics is required, then a BS physics will do. If a post specifies BS in EE or CS preferred; BS in physics with experience in programming or electronic circuit design will also be considered, then more is required. But what you won't find is "BS in physics will considered only in conjunction with a double major in EE or CS". That wouldn't make sense; the post would simply read, "BS in EE or CS required".

ETA. @StatGuy2000 . You seem skeptical that someone who graduates with only a bachelor's in mainstream physics can land a job. I'm not aware of any survey data that asks newly minted physics bachelors who have landed a job, "So what else did you bring to the table?" [And would you require the same info for other majors, including EE and CS?] But I have limited direct anecdotal evidence. When I worked in industrial R&D, I hired three newly minted mainstream physics bachelors (no other degrees, no experience in engineering or computers beyond what you get in a mainstream physics program) as research assistants. In another thread, I mentioned that I served as an industry mentor to a physics undergrad. Again, she completed a mainstream physics bachelor's degree only. She was undecided about grad school. Upon graduation, she was hired as a research assistant by a company that designs and manufactures accelerators for medical applications. [Within her first year on the job, she realized that was not a satisfying position. She later enrolled in a medical physics PhD program. She graduated last year and started her residency. But all that was her choice.]