Extracting energy out of hydrogen and oxygen

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the various methods of extracting energy from hydrogen and oxygen, focusing on the efficiency and practicality of different approaches such as fuel cells, combustion engines, and electrolysis. Participants explore theoretical and practical aspects of energy conversion and storage related to hydrogen production and utilization.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that fuel cell technology is the most efficient method for extracting energy from hydrogen and oxygen, while others favor internal combustion engines (ICE) due to their higher combustion efficiency compared to gasoline.
  • There is a discussion about the efficiency of electrolysis, with some suggesting that it can range from 50% to over 88% depending on the method and catalysts used.
  • One participant mentions that using heat in conjunction with electricity can enhance the efficiency of hydrogen production, suggesting that joint heating and electrolysis cycles may yield better results.
  • Concerns are raised about the practicality of steam turbines for energy extraction from hydrogen, with some participants expressing skepticism about their usefulness compared to other methods.
  • There is a debate about the conversion of heat to electricity, with participants discussing the thermodynamic principles involved and the inefficiencies that arise in such processes.
  • Participants explore alternative methods for hydrogen production, including chemical processes and the use of thermite reactions, while questioning the efficiency and practicality of these methods.
  • One participant highlights the importance of comparing energy outputs in the same form when discussing the efficiencies of fuel cells and ICEs, noting the different types of energy produced by each method.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the best method for extracting energy from hydrogen and oxygen, with no consensus reached on the most efficient approach. The discussion includes competing models and differing opinions on the practicality and efficiency of various methods.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the efficiency of hydrogen production methods can vary significantly based on the specific technologies and conditions used, and that the discussion encompasses both theoretical and practical considerations regarding energy conversion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying energy systems, hydrogen production technologies, and the efficiency of various energy conversion methods in the context of alternative energy sources.

  • #31
mheslep said:
Hydrogen and natural gas flame temperatures are very similar.

This usually explains why steel (not pig iron) took so much time to be truly molten. It melts at about 1500 plus give Celsius.From a historical point of view where natural gas was very abundant. No.
 
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  • #32
Lok said:
... It melts at about 1500 plus give Celsius.From a historical point of view where natural gas was very abundant. No.
Yes. There's a lot of engineering in the heat management of gas turbine engines. Heat resistant metals or ceramics are used, and the combustion gasses are rapidly expanded which cools them.
http://www.energymanagertraining.com/power_plants/Gas_Turbines.htm
http://www.netl.doe.gov/technologies/coalpower/turbines/refshelf/igcc-h2-sygas/Using%20H2%20as%20a%20GT%20Fuel.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #33
Lok said:
Fuel cells do not require pure hidrogen, not that pure hydrogen is that hard to get. Engines are actually more fussy about purity, I mean a constant purity that it is set.

This is incorrect. Fuel cells are very easily poisoned by CO and H2S. CO and sulfur based impurities bond with the platinum on the anode side of the cell removing reactions sites for the hydrogen. CO can be easily removed by applying a potential across the cell but sulfur based compounds have stronger bonds and sulfur sticks to just about everything so removing it can be more difficult.

Often, bi-metal catalysts are used on the anode side of a fuel cell to help reduce the effects of poisoning. Pt-Ru is a very common catalyst but the added Ru makes it more expensive.

Heat resistant metals or ceramics are used

Do they actually use ceramics commercially in heat turbines these days? I thought the failure rate of ceramics was still to unpredictable.
 
  • #34
Topher925 said:
Do they actually use ceramics commercially in heat turbines these days? I thought the failure rate of ceramics was still to unpredictable.
I can't reference a model number, only this at the moment:
http://www.energymanagertraining.com/power_plants/Gas_Turbines.htm
 
Last edited by a moderator:

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