FAA Certifies Boeing 787: Get Ready for Takeoff!

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the certification of the Boeing 787-8 by the FAA, exploring its innovative design features, particularly the use of carbon fiber in its construction, and the implications of these changes for the aviation industry. Participants share insights on engineering aspects, manufacturing processes, and concerns related to the aircraft's materials and performance.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight the revolutionary aspects of the 787's design, noting that it lacks a traditional airframe and is primarily made of carbon fiber, which contributes to weight reduction and fuel efficiency.
  • Concerns are raised about the long-term effects of the composite fuselage, with one participant sharing personal experience with carbon composites.
  • There are humorous remarks about the aircraft's appearance and design, with some participants making light-hearted comments.
  • Technical discussions arise regarding the design of the engine blades, with questions about their curvature and the implications for turbine speed and airflow.
  • Participants express curiosity about the aircraft's vulnerability to lightning strikes, with some suggesting that carbon fiber may pose different risks compared to traditional metal frames.
  • One participant references a lightning strike incident involving the 787, noting that Boeing has implemented conductive materials in the composites to mitigate risks associated with lightning strikes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of excitement and concern regarding the 787's design and performance. While there is agreement on the innovative nature of the aircraft, there are differing opinions on the implications of its composite materials, particularly regarding lightning protection and long-term durability. The discussion remains unresolved on several technical aspects.

Contextual Notes

Some claims about the aircraft's performance and material properties depend on specific definitions and assumptions that are not fully explored in the discussion. The effectiveness of lightning protection measures for composite materials is also noted as an area requiring further investigation.

Ivan Seeking
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The Boeing 787-8 has just been officially certified by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

6035171879_5b04175a71.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-networker/2011/08/787-is-certified-where-will-it-fly.html

The 787 incorporates some of the biggest changes in commercial aircraft construction to come along in 50 years. It is considered to be revolutionary. Most notably, it doesn't have a classic air frame. The tube is the frame! IIRC, the plane is approximately 50% carbon fiber, by weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GDqxnahwbk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlsW0RBVnVE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f07HpUAuWgk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3XssrFqWF0

Boeing has been a tremendously bright spot in the manufacturig sector. The 737-800 and a number of other models have been selling like hotcakes. But all eyes are on the 787. Big changes, big risks, big rewards!
 
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that engine looks like it could digest whole goats without skipping a beat
 
I got to see the first 787 take off from Paine Field airport :D

Paul Allen has a museum there stocked with many restored world war two aircraft along with the only Focke-Wulf Fw 190D-13 to survive the war.
 
I'm curious about the "long term" effects on the composite fuselage; having worked and made carbon composite items.
 
That transport aircraft looks like a retarded airplane :D

OH MY GOD THAT AIRPLANE IS HAVING A BABY! awwwwwwwwww
 
Thanks for posting that Ivan, Watching how Rolls Royce makes those engines, especially the fan blades out of 3 pieces of sandwiched titanium, with the middle layer looking like a twisted sine wave is awesome. All of the engines are assembled by hand.

Really cool stuff.

Rhody... :approve:
 
rhody said:
Really cool stuff.

Rhody... :approve:

Glad you liked it. I've been watching this process from the inside for over ten years now and it has been quite fascinating. From the global outsourcing of major components, to just-in-time production, in-depth and extensive supply chain management, lean manufacturing technologies, the transition to carbon fiber as the primary structural material, the loss of the classic air frame, the ever more reliable, efficient, and powerful engines [note that there are only two on a transoceanic aircraft!], and perhaps above all, the insane production rates expected, this truly does represent a revolution in the commercial aircraft industry.

I believe this is also the first commercial production aircraft to completely fly by wire. Not sure though... Airbus may have done that on the 380. But Airbus really missed the boat on this one. They simply bolted carbon fiber panels to an existing air frame. Boeing eliminated the frame and relies entirely on the carbon for its strength. This significantly reduces the weight and results in approximately 20% better fuel efficiency AND the ability to land at many regional airports - BAZINGA!
 
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Nice looking airplane! Why are the engine blades curved so much? Why are they curved one way near the center, then the other towards the outside?
 
DoggerDan said:
Nice looking airplane! Why are the engine blades curved so much? Why are they curved one way near the center, then the other towards the outside?

I think the main reason for the curve at the outer edges is to allow for greater turbine speed without exceeding the speed of sound relative to the airflow. Air flow modeling surely plays a large role as well.

In the video they state the forces acting on the blades under full load. I think they said it was 90 tons - the equivalent of hanging thirteen double-decker busses on each blade.
 
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What an amazing piece of engineering. It astonishing to think how advanced these big birds are getting every time a new one is released. Can't wait to ride on one of them.

Someone told me that the carbon fibre frame poses a larger risk of exploding if it were to be hit by lighting. Although I guess the chance of it being hit might be less than having a metal can frame. What are your thoughts?
 
  • #11
Pengwuino said:
That transport aircraft looks like a retarded airplane :D

OH MY GOD THAT AIRPLANE IS HAVING A BABY! awwwwwwwwww

I chuckle in my mind every time I read this...dork. :biggrin:

triden said:
Someone told me that the carbon fibre frame poses a larger risk of exploding if it were to be hit by lighting. Although I guess the chance of it being hit might be less than having a metal can frame. What are your thoughts?

Vulnerability to lightning strikes has been a concern for a long time. I've never heard definitively how this was handled, but presumably a conductive foil or mesh is included near the surface of the carbon fiber layers. Some time ago I had heard that a wire mesh is used on at least one military aircraft - I think this was on some military channel diddy, so this too is rumor only. Exactly how this is accomplished may well be a trade secret. But lightning strikes on aircrafts are common, so you can be sure this issue has been studied in depth and the solution tested from here to eternity.
 
  • #12
Ivan Seeking said:
I chuckle in my mind every time I read this...dork. :biggrin:



Vulnerability to lightning strikes has been a concern for a long time. I've never heard definitively how this was handled, but presumably a conductive foil or mesh is included near the surface of the carbon fiber layers. Some time ago I had heard that a wire mesh is used on at least one military aircraft - I think this was on some military channel diddy, so this too is rumor only. Exactly how this is accomplished may well be a trade secret. But lightning strikes on aircrafts are common, so you can be sure this issue has been studied in depth and the solution tested from here to eternity.
I did an experiment once with http://www.acp-composites.com/home.php?cat=251" where I made a zig-zag pattern and applied 115vac. I measured the resistance/foot and determined the length to use. It made a nice "space heater". Since it's not very conductive, they must have something going on.
[URL]http://www.acp-composites.com/images/C/tow.jpg[/URL]
 
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  • #13
Here is some general information about lightning protection for carbon-fiber aircraft.
http://www.dexmet.com/1_pdf/LSP%20for%20Carbon%20Fiber%20Aircraft.pdf

The 787 has already taken a strike

The 787 flight test team gathered the unexpected data last month after one of the Dreamliner test aircaft was struck by lightning. Unlike traditional aluminum aircraft where the entire aircraft is conductive, on a composite airplane the charge from a lightning strike would find its way to the conductive parts such as wiring or hinges. In order to avoid the risk of the charge damaging these kinds of parts, Boeing had to add conductive material to the composites in order to provide a pathway for lightning strikes.

...Boeing 787 program manager Scott Fancher told Bloomberg News the strike occurred during a flight in the Seattle area. Fancher said there appears to be no damage to the airplane, adding engineers continue to study how lightning will affect the composite airplane. The company will further test the affects of lightning with simulated strikes while the airplane is on the ground later this year.
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/06/boeing-787-withstands-lightning-strike/
 

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