Fermi gas in relativistic limit

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a Fermi gas in the relativistic limit, particularly in the context of astrophysical objects like neutron stars and white dwarfs. Participants explore the implications of relativistic degeneracy pressure and the conditions under which low-temperature approximations can be applied, despite the presence of high-energy states.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that in the non-relativistic regime, the degenerate pressure of a Fermi gas is proportional to ##n^{5/3}##, while in the ultra-relativistic limit, it is proportional to ##n^{4/3}##.
  • Another participant argues that fermions can be in a relativistic state at zero temperature if confined by high pressure, such as in a neutron star.
  • A participant questions the relationship between large momentum and high speed, suggesting that high momentum may imply high speed.
  • It is clarified that high momentum in this context is due to spatial confinement rather than high temperature.
  • Concerns are raised about the applicability of low-temperature approximations for white dwarfs, which have a temperature around 100,000K, yet still allow for the use of the zero-temperature approximation due to the dominance of degeneracy pressure over kinetic pressure.
  • Another participant reinforces that even at 100,000K, the momentum from temperature is negligible compared to the momentum due to degeneracy pressure.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the relationship between relativistic effects and degeneracy pressure but express differing views on the implications of temperature and momentum in this context. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the conditions under which low-temperature approximations can be applied in relativistic scenarios.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of applying low-temperature limits in relativistic contexts, particularly in relation to gravitational confinement and the definitions of temperature and pressure in such extreme environments.

Mayan Fung
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TL;DR
Why can we use the low-temperature limit to study Fermi gas in the ultra-relativistic limit?
In a statistical mechanics book, I learned about the degenerate pressure of a Fermi gas under the non-relativistic regime. By studying the low-temperature limit (T=0), we got degenerate pressure is ##\propto n^{5/3}## (n is the density).

And then I was told that in astrophysical objects, the fermions are in the relativistic regime so if we deal with an ultra-relativistic fermi gas: ##\epsilon = chk##, and also the low-temperature limit(T=0), then we can arrive at degenerate pressure ##\propto n^{4/3}##

My question is: If the fermions are in the ultra-relativistic limit, then it mush be very hot. How can we use the low-temperature limit to solve the problem?
 
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Chan Pok Fung said:
If the fermions are in the ultra-relativistic limit, then it must be very hot.

Not necessarily. If the fermions are being confined by very high pressure due to a strong gravitational field (such as in a neutron star), then they can be at zero temperature but still be relativistically degenerate.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Not necessarily. If the fermions are being confined by very high pressure due to a strong gravitational field (such as in a neutron star), then they can be at zero temperature but still be relativistically degenerate.

But we are taking the limit that ##pc>>mc^2## so that
$$\epsilon = \sqrt{p^2c^2+m^2c^4} = pc$$
I think a large momentum ##p## means a high speed? Or is it also related to gravity strength?
 
Chan Pok Fung said:
I think a large momentum ##p## means a high speed?

Not if you are equating "high speed" with "high temperature". The momentum in this case is due to the confinement of the fermions to smaller and smaller regions of space, not due to high temperature.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Not if you are equating "high speed" with "high temperature". The momentum in this case is due to the confinement of the fermions to smaller and smaller regions of space, not due to high temperature.
Very clear! Thanks for that!
 
Chan Pok Fung said:
It says that white dwarf has a temperature of around 100,000K.

Yes.

Chan Pok Fung said:
But I also saw this low-temperature approximation in calculating the degeneracy pressure of a white dwarf.

The energy equivalent of 100,000 K is still much less than the rest mass of an electron. So kinetic pressure even at that temperature is still negligible compared to degeneracy pressure, and the zero temperature approximation, which neglects kinetic pressure, is still a good one.
 
Chan Pok Fung said:
we are taking the limit that ##pc>>mc^2##

Yes, and note that, even at a temperature of 100,000 K, the momentum of an electron due to temperature times ##c## is much less than ##m c^2##, so it is negligible compared to the momentum due to degeneracy (gravity confining the electron to a small volume of space).
 
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