Feynman Diagrams, exchange particle?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the role of exchange particles, specifically W bosons, in beta plus decay as represented in Feynman diagrams. Participants explore the implications of charge conservation, the nature of virtual particles, and the interpretation of directions in these diagrams.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that exchange particles, like the W boson, are necessary to illustrate charge transfer in decay processes, even if they are considered virtual and do not contribute to the overall reaction balance.
  • Others argue that the W boson is essential for writing the decay process correctly, as the positron and neutrino do not couple directly to quarks.
  • A later reply questions the directionality of virtual particles, stating that it is meaningless to assign directions to them, while still acknowledging that one can describe the flow from one vertex to another.
  • Some participants express concern about the implications of exam marking criteria regarding the direction of virtual particles, suggesting that such requirements may not be appropriate.
  • There is a contention about whether the direction of the W boson matters in diagrams, with some asserting that it should not affect grading, while others emphasize the need for clarity in representation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the significance of directionality in Feynman diagrams for virtual particles and the implications for exam assessments. There is no consensus on how to approach the representation of these particles in a way that satisfies both theoretical understanding and academic requirements.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the role of virtual particles and the necessity of charge conservation at every vertex. The discussion reflects a range of interpretations and assumptions about the nature of particle interactions and their representation in diagrams.

CAH
Messages
48
Reaction score
0
Exchange Particles are to show the transfer of (for example) +/- charge to the other side so the charges balance. But I don't understand...

Beta plus decay:
p → n + e+ + νe.

This is just an example, the Feynman diagram shows a W+ boson transferring the positive charge to the right hand side, but in the equation: +1 →0 + (+1) + 0
It's all balanced.

So where does the boson come in? Is it to just reinforce the fact that a positron is produced?
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    5.5 KB · Views: 1,720
Physics news on Phys.org
The overall reaction is always balanced, and the W does not contribute to it because it is an "internal" (virtual) particle here. There is just no way to write this decay process down without W as the positron and neutrino do not couple to quarks directly. And charge (and also various other numbers) has to be balanced at every vertex.

It is possible to make an effective theory where this "direct" interaction is possible, and it does reasonably well for beta decays, but that does not match our observations in particle accelerators.
 
mfb said:
The overall reaction is always balanced, and the W does not contribute to it because it is an "internal" (virtual) particle here. There is just no way to write this decay process down without W as the positron and neutrino do not couple to quarks directly. And charge (and also various other numbers) has to be balanced at every vertex.

It is possible to make an effective theory where this "direct" interaction is possible, and it does reasonably well for beta decays, but that does not match our observations in particle accelerators.
So which direction does the boson go to?
 
It is meaningless to talk about directions for virtual particles.
You can say "a W+ goes from the quark vertex to the positron/neutrino vertex", but in the same way you can say "a W- goes from the positron/neutrino vertex to the quark vertex".
 
mfb said:
It is meaningless to talk about directions for virtual particles.
You can say "a W+ goes from the quark vertex to the positron/neutrino vertex", but in the same way you can say "a W- goes from the positron/neutrino vertex to the quark vertex".
Where does the negative/positive charge come from/go to, is it basically showing the electron/positron which is produced to balance charges?
 
CAH said:
Where does the negative/positive charge come from/go to
I don't think that is a useful question.
Charge is conserved at every vertex. It does not need "directions".
Also, no particles are produced "to balance charges". Unbalanced reactions simply cannot happen.
 
I don't think you understand my question.
Also you misunderstood my previous reply i was referring to on the diagram. (Where you draw it from, not in real life)
I know that having a W- boson going to the left has the same effect as a W+ boson going to the right, however marks may be docked in the exam anyway and i still need to know which direction it goes in anyway.
Im sure the W boson comes from the particle that's acting as i have looked into it further.
 
CAH said:
however marks may be docked in the exam anyway and i still need to know which direction it goes in anyway.
If the exam is asking for the direction of virtual particles, it is a bad exam.
 
mfb said:
If the exam is asking for the direction of virtual particles, it is a bad exam.
'If no arrow on W boson then must be clearly slanting in correct direction. E must have - subscript for second mark. If no clear junctions lose second mark. If no arrows on sides -1.'
 

Attachments

  • image.jpg
    image.jpg
    37.7 KB · Views: 633
  • #10
If they are insisting on arrows on the W, they are wrong. Fermions get arrows. The W is not a fermion.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 39 ·
2
Replies
39
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K