Feynman Diagrams- Not Conserving Momentum?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of Feynman diagrams in quantum electrodynamics (QED), particularly concerning the conservation of momentum and the representation of particles. Participants explore the implications of visualizing particles and their interactions through these diagrams, questioning the validity of classical analogies.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about Feynman diagrams, questioning why photons appear to "curve" in spacetime and suggesting that momentum seems not to be conserved in certain diagrams.
  • Another participant argues against picturing particles as billiard balls, stating that Feynman diagrams are merely tools for calculations and that momentum is conserved at every vertex, defined by the wavenumber of the particles.
  • A later reply emphasizes that the topology of the diagram is what matters, not the shape or trajectory of the lines.
  • Participants discuss the possibility of incorporating units into Feynman diagrams, with one asserting that doing so would imply a misunderstanding of particle behavior in quantum mechanics, as particles are waves and cannot have defined trajectories.
  • It is noted that the "loopy" photons in the diagrams are referred to as "virtual" particles, which do not correspond to measurable states and thus cannot be assigned definite properties like velocity or energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of Feynman diagrams, particularly regarding the visualization of particles and the implications for momentum conservation. There is no consensus on whether the diagrams can be understood in classical terms or if they should be viewed purely as mathematical constructs.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the reliance on classical analogies that may not apply in quantum mechanics, as well as the unresolved nature of how to interpret the "curving" paths of particles in the diagrams.

nhmllr
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I'm reading QED. At first I thought I understood Feynman diagrams, but due to ones like these I'm not so sure anymore. In either of these diagrams, the photon "curves" around in space time. Why would it travel in anything BUT a straight line if nothing is influencing it? I liked to picture these diagrams in my head as billiard balls going around knocking into other ones, keeping momentum conserved. But here, momentum is CLEARLY NOT conserved. If you look at the initial state of (a) even, the electron is traveling slower at first, then speeds up! What's going on here!?
 
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Don't picture particles as billiard balls. Feynman diagrams are just convenient pictures to depict calculations. In QM, particles are also waves, so the whole notion of "particles as billiard balls" doesn't make sense at all. Also, you can't get any notion of speed from these diagrams.

Momentum is conserved at every vertex in these diagrams. It is given by the wavenumber of the particles.
 
haushofer said:
Don't picture particles as billiard balls. Feynman diagrams are just convenient pictures to depict calculations. In QM, particles are also waves, so the whole notion of "particles as billiard balls" doesn't make sense at all. Also, you can't get any notion of speed from these diagrams.

Momentum is conserved at every vertex in these diagrams. It is given by the wavenumber of the particles.
Wait if the y-axis is time and the x is space, then a line with a greater slope is moving slower- right? Can't you tell speed like that- or am I reading too much into this?
 
You're reading too much into this. The only thing meaningful about the diagram is its topology.
 
Feynman diagrams are topological graphs. It only matters what points (vertices) are connected by the lines (propagators) and not their shape. When written in momentum space, there isn't even a time direction.
 
Dickfore said:
Feynman diagrams are topological graphs. It only matters what points (vertices) are connected by the lines (propagators) and not their shape. When written in momentum space, there isn't even a time direction.

But COULD you make a Feynman diagram with units? And if so, what would be happenig with these loopy photons?
 
nhmllr said:
But COULD you make a Feynman diagram with units? And if so, what would be happenig with these loopy photons?

What 'units'?
 
nhmllr said:
But COULD you make a Feynman diagram with units? And if so, what would be happenig with these loopy photons?
No. That would imply that you know the exact trajectory of the electron as a point particle. Particles are waves in QM.

These loopy photons are a remnant of the fact that you're doing perturbation theory, and are called "virtual". They never appear in an in- or outstate, as such are never directly measured, and as such cannot be assigned a velocity or definite energy.
 

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