Find the change in the Kinetic energy of an Ideal Gas

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the kinetic energy of an ideal gas, specifically addressing how changes in volume and pressure affect kinetic energy per molecule. The original poster presents two scenarios: one where the volume doubles at constant temperature and another where the volume doubles without heat transfer, but with a decrease in pressure. Participants engage in clarifying the implications of these changes on kinetic energy.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the relationship between temperature, volume, and kinetic energy, questioning the definitions of terms like "how many times" and "lower than." There is a focus on understanding ratios versus differences in the context of the problem. Some participants attempt to derive temperature changes and their effects on kinetic energy, while others seek clarification on the meaning of kinetic energy in relation to the average energy per molecule.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights and questioning assumptions. Some have offered clarifications regarding the definitions of kinetic energy and temperature, while others are still grappling with the implications of the problem's conditions. There is no explicit consensus yet, but productive dialogue is occurring around the concepts involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of absolute temperature in the context of kinetic energy and question the relevance of volume changes under constant temperature conditions. There are also discussions about the implications of adiabatic processes and equilibrium states in relation to the ideal gas behavior.

  • #31
You need to clarify the problem statement. How do you get from the initial state to the final state?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #32
Dr Dr news said:
You need to clarify the problem statement. How do you get from the initial state to the final state?
Hmm..
The volume doubled and pressure 0.3 lower than before. Gases do work. But in adiabatic condition Q = 0
##\Delta##U = W
So Ek = W?
 
  • #33
Dr Dr news said:
case 2) Without going into the gory detail, for an adiabatic process, p(V)^γ = con, where γ = c(p)/c(V) = 1.67 for a monatomic gas. which means that
p1(V1)^γ = p2(V2)^γ = (p1/1.3)(2 V1)^γ; 1.3 ≠ (2)^1.67. This is some unknown process - not adiabatic.
Is this related to number 2? Or what?
 
  • #34
The volume doubling as the pressure decreases by 30$ is not an adiabatic process. Ref. #24.
 
  • #35
Dr Dr news said:
You need to clarify the problem statement. How do you get from the initial state to the final state?
20180508_125607.jpg


This is the full questions. Hope it still readable
 

Attachments

  • 20180508_125607.jpg
    20180508_125607.jpg
    19.5 KB · Views: 388
  • #36
The first question is straightforward. Since the kinetic energy/molecule is (3/2)kT, the kinetic energy/mol is NA (3/2)kT =(3/2)RT. Further, this means that you are considering a monatomic gas which we know from kinetic theory has c(V) = 3R/2 and c(p) = 5R/2. The second question is for a V=con process, Q=?, since dV=0, Wk=0, and ΔU = Q, but ΔU=nc(V)ΔT=Q. The third question is for a p=con process, Wk=?, ΔU=Q-Wk, Wk=Q-ΔU=nc(p)ΔT-nc(V)ΔT=[c(p)-c(V)]nΔT=nRΔT=pΔV. The fourth question is for ΔT=0, Δε(kinetic)=?, since ε(kinetic)∝T, Δε(k)=0, The fifth question is for Q=0 and V(final)=2V(initial), an adiabatic expansion, ΔT=? The confusing part is the listed pressure ratio of p(final)=0.7p(initial). If it is truly an adiabatic expansion the relation p(f)/p(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^γ=(1/2)^1.67=0.314. Maybe this is what was meant, p(f)=0.314p(i), just poorly worded, in that case T(f)/T(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^(γ-1)=(1/2)^0.67=0.629=ε(k,f)/ε(k,i).
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Helly123
  • #37
Dr Dr news said:
The first question is straightforward. Since the kinetic energy/molecule is (3/2)kT, the kinetic energy/mol is NA (3/2)kT =(3/2)RT. Further, this means that you are considering a monatomic gas which we know from kinetic theory has c(V) = 3R/2 and c(p) = 5R/2. The second question is for a V=con process, Q=?, since dV=0, Wk=0, and ΔU = Q, but ΔU=nc(V)ΔT=Q. The third question is for a p=con process, Wk=?, ΔU=Q-Wk, Wk=Q-ΔU=nc(p)ΔT-nc(V)ΔT=[c(p)-c(V)]nΔT=nRΔT=pΔV. The fourth question is for ΔT=0, Δε(kinetic)=?, since ε(kinetic)∝T, Δε(k)=0, The fifth question is for Q=0 and V(final)=2V(initial), an adiabatic expansion, ΔT=? The confusing part is the listed pressure ratio of p(final)=0.7p(initial). If it is truly an adiabatic expansion the relation p(f)/p(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^γ=(1/2)^1.67=0.314. Maybe this is what was meant, p(f)=0.314p(i), just poorly worded, in that case T(f)/T(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^(γ-1)=(1/2)^0.67=0.629=ε(k,f)/ε(k,i).
Wow. Thanks a lot for reviewing all questions
 
  • #38
Dr Dr news said:
The first question is straightforward. Since the kinetic energy/molecule is (3/2)kT, the kinetic energy/mol is NA (3/2)kT =(3/2)RT. Further, this means that you are considering a monatomic gas which we know from kinetic theory has c(V) = 3R/2 and c(p) = 5R/2. The second question is for a V=con process, Q=?, since dV=0, Wk=0, and ΔU = Q, but ΔU=nc(V)ΔT=Q. The third question is for a p=con process, Wk=?, ΔU=Q-Wk, Wk=Q-ΔU=nc(p)ΔT-nc(V)ΔT=[c(p)-c(V)]nΔT=nRΔT=pΔV. The fourth question is for ΔT=0, Δε(kinetic)=?, since ε(kinetic)∝T, Δε(k)=0, The fifth question is for Q=0 and V(final)=2V(initial), an adiabatic expansion, ΔT=? The confusing part is the listed pressure ratio of p(final)=0.7p(initial). If it is truly an adiabatic expansion the relation p(f)/p(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^γ=(1/2)^1.67=0.314. Maybe this is what was meant, p(f)=0.314p(i), just poorly worded, in that case T(f)/T(i)=[V(i)/V(f)]^(γ-1)=(1/2)^0.67=0.629=ε(k,f)/ε(k,i).
So, p f = 0.3 p i
Not that pf 0.3 lower than pi?
 
  • #39
That is what it looks like to me.
 
  • #40
Dr Dr news said:
That is what it looks like to me.
Ok. Thanks sir
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
Replies
2
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
5K