Finding the radius of curvature of trajectory

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves finding the radius of curvature of a trajectory defined by polar coordinates, with given functions for radius and angle over time. The context includes discussions on acceleration components and their relation to curvature.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the use of different equations for curvature and the relationship between acceleration components in polar coordinates. Questions arise about the definitions of velocity components and how to resolve acceleration into tangential and centripetal components.

Discussion Status

There is ongoing exploration of the relationships between acceleration components and curvature. Some participants have offered clarifications on how to calculate tangential and centripetal acceleration, while others are questioning their understanding of the formulas and their application to the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants are navigating through the complexities of polar coordinates and the definitions of velocity and acceleration components, indicating potential gaps in information or understanding of the problem setup.

doktorwho
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Homework Statement


The functions are given:
##r(t)=pe^{kt}##
##\theta (t)=kt##
##v(r)=\sqrt2kr##
##a(t)=2k^2r##
Find the radius of the curvature of the trajectory in the function of ##r##

Homework Equations


$$R=\frac{(\dot x^2 + \dot y^2)^{3/2}}{(\dot x\ddot y - \ddot x\dot y)}$$
There is also a second equation:
$$R=\frac{(1- y'^2)^{3/2}}{y''}$$

The Attempt at a Solution


I tried using the first one to get the dependence of ##t## and then transforming to the dependence of ##r## but i get stuck. Here:
##R=\frac{(\dot x^2 + \dot y^2)^{3/2}}{(\dot x\ddot y - \ddot x\dot y)}##
I did not know what exactly are ##x, y## in my problem statement so i supposed that they are the radial and angle component of the velocity vector.
##v(t)=pke^{kt}\vec e_r + pke^{kt}\vec e_{\theta}##
So the ##(\dot x^2 + \dot y^2)^{3/2}=(2p^2k^2e^{2kt})^{3/2}##
##=\sqrt2pke^{kt}##
I have continued like this and used the acceleration in the polar coordinates for the below part but fail to get anything. Is my thinking from the start wrong? Could i have used an easier way? Perhaps finding the dependence on ##r## immediately from the result insted of first from ##t##?
 
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If you calculated the acceleration, would you be able to resolve the acceleration into tangential and centripetal components?
 
Chestermiller said:
If you calculated the acceleration, would you be able to resolve the acceleration into tangential and centripetal components?
##a=(\ddot r-\dot \theta^2)\vec e_r +(r\ddot \theta +2\dot r\dot \theta)\vec e_\theta##
From here my centripetal component is the radial one here, right? and the tangential is the angle one? Or is there another formula that connects the two?
 
doktorwho said:
##a=(\ddot r-\dot \theta^2)\vec e_r +(r\ddot \theta +2\dot r\dot \theta)\vec e_\theta##
From here my centripetal component is the radial one here, right? and the tangential is the angle one? Or is there another formula that connects the two?
No. The tangential component of acceleration is what you get if you dot the acceleration vector with a unit vector in the direction of the velocity vector. If this component is subtracted from the acceleration vector, what remains is the centripetal acceleration.
 
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Chestermiller said:
No. The tangential component of acceleration is what you get if you dot the acceleration vector with a unit vector in the direction of the velocity vector. If this component is subtracted from the acceleration vector, what remains is the centripetal acceleration.
So
##a_t=(a_rv_r+a_\theta v_\theta)##
And
##a_c=\sqrt{a^2-a^2_t}##
Where ##a=\sqrt{a^2_r+a^2_\theta}##?
How does this relate to the problem? Is my work on the above of the fraction part correct?
 
doktorwho said:
So
##a_t=(a_rv_r+a_\theta v_\theta)##
And
##a_c=\sqrt{a^2-a^2_t}##
Where ##a=\sqrt{a^_r+a^2_θ }##?
How does this relate to the problem? Is my work on the above of the fraction part correct?
No. The unit vector tangent to the trajectory is given by $$\vec{i}_t=\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$The tangential component of the acceleration is given by:
$$\vec{a}_t=(\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{i}_t)\vec{i}_t=\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$
The component of the acceleration normal to the trajectory is given by:$$\vec{a}_n=\vec{a}-\vec{a}_t=\vec{a}-\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$The square of the normal component of acceleration is given by:
$$|\vec{a}_n|^2=\vec{a}\centerdot {\vec{a}}-\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)^2$$
This is related to the radius of curvature R of the trajectory by $$\frac{v^2}{R}=|\vec{a}_n|$$
Try this approach with Cartesian coordinates to verify that it gives the correct result for the radius of curvature.
 
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Chestermiller said:
No. The unit vector tangent to the trajectory is given by $$\vec{i}_t=\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$The tangential component of the acceleration is given by:
$$\vec{a}_t=(\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{i}_t)\vec{i}_t=\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$
The component of the acceleration normal to the trajectory is given by:$$\vec{a}_n=\vec{a}-\vec{a}_t=\vec{a}-\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)\frac{\vec{v}}{|v|}$$The square of the normal component of acceleration is given by:
$$|\vec{a}_n|^2=\vec{a}\centerdot {\vec{a}}-\left(\frac{\vec{a}\centerdot \vec{v}}{|v|}\right)^2$$
This is related to the radius of curvature R of the trajectory by $$\frac{v^2}{R}=|\vec{a}_n|$$
Try this approach with Cartesian coordinates to verify that it gives the correct result for the radius of curvature.
Before i go on to calculate the tangential acceleration let's get something straight
##a_t=\frac{(a_rv_r+a_\theta v_theta)}{\sqrt{v^r_r+v^2_\theta}}## this is the fomula for the tangetial acceleration right?
 
doktorwho said:
Before i go on to calculate the tangential acceleration let's get something straight
##a_t=\frac{(a_rv_r+a_\theta v_theta)}{\sqrt{v^r_r+v^2_\theta}}## this is the fomula for the tangetial acceleration right?
Yes.
 
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