A First loophole-free Bell test?

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  • #51
billschnieder said:
Let me see if I understand this right. Alice and Bob pick their settings, perform their measurements. During the process a photon is emitted from their respective electrons. Both photons are sent to station C. At station C, "entanglement swapping" (aka post-processing) is performed to decide if "state-preparation" was successful.
You have misunderstood the process. Look at figure 2a in the paper. First photon is emitted by NV center and sent to station C and only a moment later basis is selected.
 
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  • #52
billschnieder said:
Let me see if I understand this right. Alice and Bob pick their settings, perform their measurements. During the process a photon is emitted from their respective electrons. Both photons are sent to station C. At station C, "entanglement swapping" (aka post-processing) is performed to decide if "state-preparation" was successful. They successfully "prepare the state " with a success probability of 6.4e-9! Only 245 successful "preparation" out of many millions of trials.

Maybe it's the wine I drank before reading the paper but, it looks to me like a detection loophole experiment done in reverse, then misinterpreted. I'll have to read it again in the morning. Has this thing even been peer-reviewed? Have any of you read it carefully?
I have read it very carefully. The experiment has been under preparation for two years and a stream of peer-reviewed publications have established all the components of the experiment one by one http://hansonlab.tudelft.nl/publications/ . The design of the present experiment was announced half a year ago. Two years ago I believe, they already did this with 1.5 metre separation.

Please take a look at Bell's (1981) "Bertlmann's socks", discussion of an experiment around figure 7. With the three locations A, B, C. This is exactly the experiment which they did in Delft.

The idea of having so-called "event-ready detectors" through entanglement swapping has been known since 1993 http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.71.4287

‘‘Event-ready-detectors’’ Bell experiment via entanglement swapping
M. Żukowski, A. Zeilinger, M. A. Horne, and A. K. Ekert
Phys. Rev. Lett. 71, 4287 – Published 27 December 1993

It's true that Alice and Bob are doing those measurements again and again and all but a tiny proportion of their attempts are wasted. They don't know in advance which measurements are the good ones, which ones aren't (because by the time a message arrived from the central location saying that this time it's the real thing, they would already be half finished with the measurement they are doing at that moment).

So there is a "post-selection" of measurement results. But the space-time arrangement is such that it cannot influence the settings being used for the measurements. Your computer does the selection retrospectively but effectively it was done in advance.
 
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  • #53
gill1109 said:
Some of my best friends are Bohmians!
They believe in you even when they don't see you. :biggrin:
 
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  • #54
zonde said:
You have misunderstood the process. Look at figure 2a in the paper. First photon is emitted by NV center and sent to station C and only a moment later basis is selected.
Then why are they randomly switching between two different microwave pulses in order to generate the photons entangled with the electrons. Why not just a single pulse. It seems to me the settings are the microwave pulses and those are set before the photons are emitted. The readout happens later but the emitted photons already know the settings. How do they avoid setting dependent post-selection at C?
 
  • #55
gill1109 said:
Please take a look at Bell's (1981) "Bertlmann's socks", discussion of an experiment around figure 7. With the three locations A, B, C. This is exactly the experiment which they did in Delft.
That's a stretch. Bells event ready setup involves a third signal to Alice and Bob that an entangled pair was emitted. In this case, Alice and Bob's particles are not entangled to begin with. But photons from A and B are used at station C to select the sub-dnsemble of results that correspond to entanglement. No " event-ready" signal is ever sent to A and B.
So there is a "post-selection" of measurement results. But the space-time arrangement is such that it cannot influence the settings being used for the measurements. Your computer does the selection retrospectively but effectively it was done in advance.
Maybe, that's what is not so clear to me. Are the "settings" the microwave pulses P0 and P1, driven by RNGs?
 
  • #56
gill1109 said:
Please take a look at Bell's (1981) "Bertlmann's socks", discussion of an experiment around figure 7. With the three locations A, B, C. This is exactly the experiment which they did in Delft.

You had mentioned "Bertlmann's socks" before. I'm familiar with that essay by Bell, but I always took his device, with the boxes and settings, to be an intuitive abstraction of the EPR experiment. I never thought of it as a serious proposal for an actual experiment.
 
  • #57
Their p value is 0.04. Why is that loophole free?
 
  • #58
Heinera said:
Then you have the metaphysical loopholes, that cannot even in principle be falsified by experiments. I have to side with Popper on this one: It's not science.
I disagree. Loophole is loophole. One has to close it.

In the case of a metaphysical loophole, it is closed by accepting, as a sort of axiom or fundamental principle, something postulate which prevents it. This postulate, taken alone, cannot be tested by observation.

But this does not make such a postulate unphysical, not even from Popper's point of view. Popper has recognized from the start that not every particular statement of a physical theory can be tested, that one needs the whole theory to get predictions about real experiments. Then, answering Quine's holism, which claims that a single theory is not enough, but the whole of physics is necessary to make experimental predictions, he has recognized even more, namely that often even a whole theory taken alone is not sufficient to derive any nontrivial, falsifiable prediction. Each real experiment depends on a lot of different theories - in particular, theories about the accuracy of all measurement instruments involved.

Just for example that even famous theories taken alone do not give anything, take GR. Whatever the observed distribution of matter, and whatever the gravitational field, by defining dark matter as T_{mn}^{dark} = G_{mn}-T_{mn}^{obs} the Einstein equations of GR can be forced to hold exactly. One needs additional assumptions about properties of dark matter to derive anything from the Einstein equations. Else, all what is predicted by GR is nothing more than what is predicted by all metric theories of gravity - namely that what clocks measure may be described by a metric.

The point what makes it unnecessary to accept Quine's holism is that one can test the several theories involved in each actual experiment in other, independent experiments. This is, in particular, how one solves the problem of theories about measurement devices. You can test the measurement devices in completely different experiments, and this is what is done with real experimental devices. Say, their accuracy can be tested as by comparison with other devices, or (for the most accurate ones) by comparing other devices of the same type.

But, even if we can reject Quine's holism, the other extreme that single principles, taken alone, should be falsifiable, is nonsensical too.

But, once we cannot test them, taken alone, why should we accept them? There are some good reasons for accepting them.

For example, compatibility: Even if we have no TOE, a principle may be compatible with all the best available theories. Another point is what would be the consequence of rejection: It could be that, once it is rejected, one would have to give up doing science, because, if the rejection would be taken seriously, no experiment could tell us anything nontrivial. Superdeterminism would be of this type. Similarly a rejection of Reichenbach's principle of common cause: Once it is rejected, there would be no longer any justification to ask for realistic explanation of observed correlations. The tobacco lobby would be happy, no need to explain correlations of smoking and cancer, astrologers too, because the discussion about astrology would be reduced to statistical facts about correlations - are correlations between positions of planet with various things in our lifes significant or not, and the major point that there is no causal explanation for such influences would disappear.

So, there are possibilities for strong arguments in favour of physical principles, even if they, taken alone, cannot be tested.
 
  • #59
billschnieder said:
That's a stretch. Bells event ready setup involves a third signal to Alice and Bob that an entangled pair was emitted. In this case, Alice and Bob's particles are not entangled to begin with. But photons from A and B are used at station C to select the sub-dnsemble of results that correspond to entanglement. No " event-ready" signal is ever sent to A and B.
Maybe, that's what is not so clear to me. Are the "settings" the microwave pulses P0 and P1, driven by RNGs?
Sure, Bell was thinking of signals going from C to A and B. Now we have the opposite. But the end result is the same. There is a signal at C which says that at a certain time later it is worth doing a measurement at A and at B. We use the "go" signals at C to select which of the A and B measurements go into the statistics. The end result is effectively the same.
 
  • #60
stevendaryl said:
You had mentioned "Bertlmann's socks" before. I'm familiar with that essay by Bell, but I always took his device, with the boxes and settings, to be an intuitive abstraction of the EPR experiment. I never thought of it as a serious proposal for an actual experiment.
If you look at several other papers by Bell around the same time you will see that he was very very serious about finding a three-particle atomic decay so that one of the particles could be used to signal that the other two were on their way. Remember that Pearle's detection loophole paper was 10 years earlier. Bell well understood the problem with the experiments (like Aspect's) which were starting to be done at that time, where there was no control at all of when particles got emitted / measured.
 
  • #61
Ilja said:
Superdeterminism would be of this type. Similarly a rejection of Reichenbach's principle of common cause: Once it is rejected, there would be no longer any justification to ask for realistic explanation of observed correlations. The tobacco lobby would be happy, no need to explain correlations of smoking and cancer, astrologers too, because the discussion about astrology would be reduced to statistical facts about correlations - are correlations between positions of planet with various things in our lifes significant or not, and the major point that there is no causal explanation for such influences would disappear.

Why would superdeterminism lead to giving up science? Couldn't one be a Bohmian and a superdeterminist? The Bohmian theory would be an effective theory, and the superdeterminist theory would be the true unknowable theory.

Also, couldn't one still make operational predictions if one gives up Reichenbach's principle? In quantum mechanics, we would still be able to say that a preparation and measurement yields certain correlations. So we would still be able to say that a preparation involving smoking, and a measurement involving cancer would still give the correlations.
 
  • #62
atyy said:
Why would superdeterminism lead to giving up science? Couldn't one be a Bohmian and a superdeterminist? The Bohmian theory would be an effective theory, and the superdeterminist theory would be the true unknowable theory.

Also, couldn't one still make operational predictions if one gives up Reichenbach's principle? In quantum mechanics, we would still be able to say that a preparation and measurement yields certain correlations. So we would still be able to say that a preparation involving smoking, and a measurement involving cancer would still give the correlations.
The problem with superdeterminism is that it isn't a theory. It doesn't make predictions. It doesn't explain how those correlations come about. It says they come about because the stuff in Alice's lab knows what is going on in Bob's lab, since everything was predetermined at the time of the big bang. You might like to call this theology. I don't call it physics.

Gerard 't Hooft believes that nature is completely deterministic at the Planck scale. He points out that we do not do experiments at the Planck scale. But he does not explain how determinism at this scale allows coordination between Bob's photo-detector and Alice's random number generator ... a subtle coordination which does not allow Alice to communicate with Bob instantaneously over vast distances but does keep their measurement outcomes and measurement settings mysteriously and delicately constrained, without their having any idea that this is going on.
 
  • #63
gill1109 said:
The problem with superdeterminism is that it isn't a theory. It doesn't make predictions. It doesn't explain how those correlations come about. It says they come about because the stuff in Alice's lab knows what is going on in Bob's lab, since everything was predetermined at the time of the big bang. You might like to call this theology. I don't call it physics.

Yes, but is there any problem with believing in it and doing physics?
 
  • #64
atyy said:
Yes, but is there any problem with believing in it and doing physics?
I have no problem with what anyone else wants to believe. As long as weird beliefs don't get in the way of doing physics.

Did any good physics come out of superdeterminism?
 
  • #65
atyy said:
Why would superdeterminism lead to giving up science?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's impossible to do science in a superdeterministic universe, but it's a lot harder. We learn about the laws of physics by tweaking conditions and seeing how our observations are changed. To reason about such tweaking, we typically assume that our tweaks are independent variables. To give an example, if you're trying to figure out whether Skittles cause cancer in rats, you give Skittles to some rats and not to others, and compare their cancer rates. If (through some unknown mechanism), you're more likely to give Skittles to cancer-prone rats than non-cancer-prone rats, then such a test wouldn't say anything about whether Skittles cause cancer.

A superdeterministic explanation of EPR results might go like this: The electron/positron pair have predetermined, fixed spins. Depending on those spins, Alice and Bob are more likely to choose one setting over another. Superdeterminism casts into doubt our notions of what is the "independent variable" in an experiment.

As I said, I don't think superdeterminism necessarily makes science impossible, but it makes it much more difficult to understand what's going on in an experiment.
 
  • #66
gill1109 said:
I have no problem with what anyone else wants to believe. As long as weird beliefs don't get in the way of doing physics.

Did any good physics come out of superdeterminism?

I was only arguing that there is no problem with believing in superdeterminism and being simultaneously a Bohmian and a Copenhagenist.

One needs some philosophy to do physics, eg. I am not a brain in a vat. Otherwise, quantum mechanics predicts that it is impossible for the Bell inequalities to be violated at spacelike separation.
 
  • #67
stevendaryl said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's impossible to do science in a superdeterministic universe, but it's a lot harder. We learn about the laws of physics by tweaking conditions and seeing how our observations are changed. To reason about such tweaking, we typically assume that our tweaks are independent variables. To give an example, if you're trying to figure out whether Skittles cause cancer in rats, you give Skittles to some rats and not to others, and compare their cancer rates. If (through some unknown mechanism), you're more likely to give Skittles to cancer-prone rats than non-cancer-prone rats, then such a test wouldn't say anything about whether Skittles cause cancer.

A superdeterministic explanation of EPR results might go like this: The electron/positron pair have predetermined, fixed spins. Depending on those spins, Alice and Bob are more likely to choose one setting over another. Superdeterminism casts into doubt our notions of what is the "independent variable" in an experiment.

As I said, I don't think superdeterminism necessarily makes science impossible, but it makes it much more difficult to understand what's going on in an experiment.

I really don't understand why it would be any harder. Let's suppose our universe is superdeterministic. Experimental evidence shows that we already do science, eg. we developed and tested the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So if the universe is superdeterministic, experimental evidence shows that we have already overcome the hurdles that superdeterminism poses.
 
  • #68
gill1109 said:
The problem with superdeterminism is that it isn't a theory. It doesn't make predictions. It doesn't explain how those correlations come about. It says they come about because the stuff in Alice's lab knows what is going on in Bob's lab, since everything was predetermined at the time of the big bang. You might like to call this theology. I don't call it physics.

I don't think that's a fair characterization. One could just as well criticize Newton's laws of motion on those grounds: It doesn't make any predictions to say that acceleration is proportional to the force, if you don't know what forces are at work. That's true. Newton's laws are not a predictive theory in themselves, but become predictive when supplemented by a theory of forces (gravitational, electromagnetic, etc.)

The same thing could be true for a superdeterministic theory. Saying that superdeterminism holds doesn't make any predictions, but if you have a specific theory that allows you to derive the superdeterministic correlations, then that would be predictive.
 
  • #69
atyy said:
I really don't understand why it would be any harder. Let's suppose our universe is superdeterministic. Experimental evidence shows that we already do science, eg. we developed and tested the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. So if the universe is superdeterministic, experimental evidence shows that we have already overcome the hurdles that superdeterminism poses.

I would say that the success of science so far (with the way that we currently do experiments) shows that the laws of physics can be usefully approximated by theories that are not superdeterministic.
 
  • #70
stevendaryl said:
I would say that the success of science so far (with the way that we currently do experiments) shows that the laws of physics can be usefully approximated by theories that are not superdeterministic.

And if there is another universe in which superdeterminism prevents science, then, well we don't live in it. It's a bit like the anthropic principle.
 
  • #71
atyy said:
And if there is another universe in which superdeterminism prevents science, then, well we don't live in it. It's a bit like the anthropic principle.

Well, if a superdeterministic theory can be usefully approximated by a non-superdeterministic theory, then we can certainly make scientific progress within that approximate theory in the usual way. The point is that if we want to go beyond that approximate theory to understand how the superdeterminism comes into play, it might require a drastically different way of doing science.

So it's not so much that superdeterminism would prevent us from doing science, but that the current way of doing science isn't likely to tell us much about superdeterministic theories.

On the other hand, superdeterminism only makes interpreting experiments more difficult, where the typical experiment involves intentional setting up certain conditions to see what the consequences are. But not all science involves that type of experiment. For example, astronomy is (almost?) exclusively passive observation. We don't get to put stars or planets into particular configurations to see how they evolve, we have to find instances where they are already in those configurations. I don't think that superdeterminism would have much change in the way such passive-observation science is done.

(My apologies if the word "passive" to describe astronomy is offensive. That wasn't my intention. I'm not sure whether there is a standard term for those sorts of fields where experiments are possible, such as physics, chemistry, biology, and the sorts of fields where experiments are not practical, such as astrophysics.)
 
  • #72
atyy said:
Yes, but is there any problem with believing in it and doing physics?
There is none, except that if superdeterminism "would be taken seriously", which was a condition I have made. Knowing human condition, and in particular the human ability to live with a lot of self-contradictions in what one believes, I would not think that there will be any problem in believing superdeterminism together with astrology, intelligent design and the catholic dogma and nonetheless doing physics.

There is, by the way, nothing wrong with this. It helps us to survive: Imagine we would follow what we believe consistently - in this case, we often would have to do quite stupid things, like, in the mentioned examples, to reject science. We usually don't do such stupid things, because the arguments for not doing such nonsense are strong and powerful enough. The result are contradictions in what we believe.

An excuse will be found, that's easy. Say, we reject Reichenbach's principle, because it would, together with the violation of Bell's inequality, require a hidden preferred frame, which is anathema. Do we, that's why, reject Reichenbach's principle consistently? This would mean, we could start to smoke without being afraid of cancer, because this is only a correlation, thus, does not require a causal, realistic explanation. This would be stupid, common sense is enough to tell us about this. So we continue to care about Reichenbach's principle in everyday life. Why don't we care in the case of the violation of Bell's inequality? That's quantum strangeness. Quote Feynman, nobody can understand this. Case closed.
 
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  • #73
Ilja said:
There is none, except that if superdeterminism "would be taken seriously", which was a condition I have made. Knowing human condition, and in particular the human ability to live with a lot of self-contradictions in what one believes, I would not think that there will be any problem in believing superdeterminism together with astrology, intelligent design and the catholic dogma and nonetheless doing physics.

I did mean superdeterminism taken seriously. Does it lead to any actual contradiction? In other words, can you already rule out superdeterminism on experimental evidence?
 
  • #74
atyy said:
Why would superdeterminism lead to giving up science? Couldn't one be a Bohmian and a superdeterminist? The Bohmian theory would be an effective theory, and the superdeterminist theory would be the true unknowable theory.

Also, couldn't one still make operational predictions if one gives up Reichenbach's principle? In quantum mechanics, we would still be able to say that a preparation and measurement yields certain correlations. So we would still be able to say that a preparation involving smoking, and a measurement involving cancer would still give the correlations.
First, the usual studies do not use smoking as a preparation. It is purely observation of correlations between people smoking, for some periods, and lung cancer. Then, with superdeterminism a preparation would not give you anything. Because your act of preparing the experiment is superdetermined.
 
  • #75
Ilja said:
An excuse will be found, that's easy. Say, we reject Reichenbach's principle, because it would, together with the violation of Bell's inequality, require a hidden preferred frame, which is anathema. Do we, that's why, reject Reichenbach's principle consistently? This would mean, we could start to smoke without being afraid of cancer, because this is only a correlation, thus, does not require a causal, realistic explanation.

Well, such philosophical principles (including Occam's razor and Popper's falsifiability) can be understood as "more of a guideline than a rule". Given two theories, you prefer the one that satisfies some cherished principle, unless it contradicts some other cherished principle. "Cigarettes are harmless" isn't considered, by people other than tobacco executives, to be a cherished scientific principle.
 
  • #76
Ilja said:
First, the usual studies do not use smoking as a preparation. It is purely observation of correlations between people smoking, for some periods, and lung cancer. Then, with superdeterminism a preparation would not give you anything. Because your act of preparing the experiment is superdetermined.

As I said in another post, superdeterminism might call into question the notion of a "controlled experiment", but certain kinds of science can be done in spite of the lack of controlled experiments. We can figure out the evolution of stars, for example, even though we don't have any way of preparing a star with a particular mass and angular momentum.
 
  • #77
atyy said:
I did mean superdeterminism taken seriously. Does it lead to any actual contradiction? In other words, can you already rule out superdeterminism on experimental evidence?

I don't think that there is any way to rule out superdeterminism on the basis of experimental evidence. To rule out superdeterminism, you would need to show that things could have happened differently than they actually happened. But since we only get one "run" of the universe, I don't see how you could possibly show that.
 
  • #78
atyy said:
I did mean superdeterminism taken seriously. Does it lead to any actual contradiction? In other words, can you already rule out superdeterminism on experimental evidence?
No, superdeterminism simply does not allow to make any reasonable predictions, thus, is unfalsifiable.

My point was that this, taken alone, is not yet sufficient to reject a metaphysical principle. Because this is a quite typical situation for principles. For example, if one takes into account the possibility of yet undetected forms of energy, energy conservation would be empty too, as well as its rejection. So, I propose to reject superdeterminism not because it is unfalsifiable (even if it is) but because, if taken seriously, it would make experimental science a meaningless exercise.
 
  • #79
Ilja said:
First, the usual studies do not use smoking as a preparation. It is purely observation of correlations between people smoking, for some periods, and lung cancer. Then, with superdeterminism a preparation would not give you anything. Because your act of preparing the experiment is superdetermined.

I didn't mean to believe in superdeterminism and give up Reichenbach's principle together. Let's just give up Reichenbach's principle, and accept quantum mechanics and be agnostic about hidden variables. Then let's consider smoking to be the preparation - in the usual studies, this would be a mixed state of the different smokers with their different life histories and smoking habits. Then we could compare this with another preparation of non-smokers - that would be a different mixed state. So comparing the two mixed states, we would be able to show that cancer was more common in one preparation than another.
 
  • #80
Ilja said:
No, superdeterminism simply does not allow to make any reasonable predictions, thus, is unfalsifiable.

My point was that this, taken alone, is not yet sufficient to reject a metaphysical principle. Because this is a quite typical situation for principles. For example, if one takes into account the possibility of yet undetected forms of energy, energy conservation would be empty too, as well as its rejection. So, I propose to reject superdeterminism not because it is unfalsifiable (even if it is) but because, if taken seriously, it would make experimental science a meaningless exercise.

But if superdeterminism cannot be ruled out, then it is consistent with all available data.

Also, available data shows that science is possible.

So by logic, superdeterminism is consistent with the possibility of science.
 
  • #81
Ilja said:
Another point is what would be the consequence of rejection: It could be that, once it is rejected, one would have to give up doing science, because, if the rejection would be taken seriously, no experiment could tell us anything nontrivial. Superdeterminism would be of this type.
With superdeterminism, would you actually have the luxury of choosing to give up doing science?
 
  • #82
Closed pending moderation

Edit: the thread will remain closed. Everyone has had a chance to pontificate on their pet philosophy of the day.
 
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  • #83
The Hansen et al. paper has now been published in Nature in this week's (Oct. 21, 2015) issue. As a reminder, the preprint can still be found on ArXiv, with the link listed in the first post of this thread.

Zz.
 
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