Dismiss Notice
Join Physics Forums Today!
The friendliest, high quality science and math community on the planet! Everyone who loves science is here!

First person without a legal gender

  1. Mar 22, 2010 #1
  2. jcsd
  3. Mar 22, 2010 #2
    I believe its mind told it it's nothing really.

    By the way, can you point out any difference between a 'gender identity' and a 'subculture', any thing that does not apply to the former but does to the later or the reverse. Because I haven't found it and neither has any person that I know of.

    There are people that are so into anime they want to be Japanese and are distressed by their not being. There are people that are so into female stuff that they want to be female, and are distressed by their not being.
  4. Mar 22, 2010 #3
    Those people are weird and should be marooned on an island in the south Atlantic.
  5. Mar 22, 2010 #4
  6. Mar 22, 2010 #5
    http://blog.oregonlive.com/qpdx/2008/08/small_trans-bathroom.jpg [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  7. Mar 22, 2010 #6
    Ahahaha, interesting.

    Consider this thread my coming out by the way, I don't have a gender identity, and I never got the business either.

    What does 'having an identity', any identity mean really? It just means you 'see yourself' as 'male' or as 'female' or something? How can you 'see yourself' as that? What does it even mean to be that?

    How can you 'see yourself' as some-thing, as any-thing, I don't get it. I mean, I get it if it's some defined thing, but then you don't 'see yourself' as it, then you're just it, or you aren't. But things like 'gender' or 'human' or 'punker' or 'republican' or 'Christian' are just so different, so vague, every one interprets it in a completely different way that I really don't get what it means any more to 'identify' as it.
  8. Mar 22, 2010 #7


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Balancing the cost of adding a tri-bool type for gender to all RDMS and fixing millions of tables in millions of databases vs just putting out a hit - I think the association of database admins are going to be making a call to someone called 'vinne the...'

    Then maybe we can get a bulk deal on people with names longer than 80chars, people with a ' and anyone who insists that von or van shouldn't be ordered under 'v'
  9. Mar 22, 2010 #8
    You are a male if you have a penis.

    A female if you have a vagina.

    You are still a male even if you removed your penis.

    You are still a female even if you removed your vagina.

    There is no in between. It is black and white, no matter how your mind "sees yourself."
  10. Mar 22, 2010 #9


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    Generally a good guideline in a bar.

    But leaving aside this 'personal choice' case - external dangly bits and chromosomes don't always tell the same story.
    You can be a male with an insensitivity to testosterone which will give you a vagina and no penis.
  11. Mar 22, 2010 #10
    Sure? Why do you complain then if people act out a different gender?

    You just said they stay male or female? By your own definition here, these people you don't like because they are a different gender than they claim in fact are still the same gender?

    You just said it, saying you are female or male doesn't change a thing about your gender, so where do you complain about? By your own definition, these people you're so scared of don't exist.
  12. Mar 22, 2010 #11
    What if you removed your penis and gained a vagina? Then you "have a vagina", so by your definition are female. Never mind hermaphrodites...

    Probably a better way to define it is with chromosomes, but then you're still left with http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-xxy-chromosomes.htm".

    I guess my point is: Gender is not as well defined as you'd like to think it is.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  13. Mar 22, 2010 #12
    Well, there is the SRY gene, however, the argument that can never be overcome is mosaics. A lot of people are so called mosaics, if by the first, or the second division of a fertilized zygote a functional mutation occurs, 1/4 or 1/2 of your cells will simply have different DNA, if it's not in antigens, this will not cause any bad sides, in fact, it's why some people have two colours of hairdo or two different eye colours.

    What if this happens to your SRY gene hmm?
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  14. Mar 22, 2010 #13
    Fail. Google 'ambiguous genitalia'
  15. Mar 22, 2010 #14


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    By any definition that matters ms Cossey is female

    Same thing as multiple chromosones, eg XXY and XYY
    If you are male and have a faulty SRY you look like a women.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  16. Mar 22, 2010 #15

    Ben Niehoff

    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    What if you were born with both? (Some people are!) What if you were born with a half-formed mess that is really neither? (Some people are!) What if you were born with something indeterminate, and the doctors decided to do some rearranging to make you into one or the other, so that you wouldn't feel out of place at school? (It happens more often than you might think!)

    It's rather silly to pretend there must be a strict dichotomy, when in fact there exist people whose physical bodies explicitly violate that dichotomy. Who cares? Let people be who they want to be, I say.
  17. Mar 22, 2010 #16
    They can be who they want to be, as long as they are on the island in the South Atlantic with the rest of the "I dunnos"
  18. Mar 22, 2010 #17


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    As long as they pick one and I don't have to create a check box that says:
    male, female, don't know, don't care, male-female, female-male, male but like to wear clean shirts, female but understands the offside rule,etc.

    I'm not rewriting websites to accomodate a slider control for gender.

    It's bad enough having to handle people with accents - I hope that midget pop star with the squiggle for a name never catches on again.
  19. Mar 22, 2010 #18


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    You've been to Tasmania as well then?
  20. Mar 22, 2010 #19
    Here's a new one: why is there a check box for your gender on so many things where it's not relevant?

    Is it relevant what my gender is for the taxes I pay? Do males get to pay less taxes than females? Why do I have to fill it in there?

    Why do I have to fill my gender in if I sign up to a forum, do I get banned less easily if I'm a girl?

    When people ask me for my sex I say 'male', I have a clear penis, if people ask me for my gender I say 'none', it's like people asking you if you're conservative or liberal, you have to pick either, you can't say 'Well, I think I share elements of both' or 'I decide issue per issue.'

    Also, saying you have to keep your gender and sex aligned is like saying you have to be conservative if you're born in the southern US.
  21. Mar 22, 2010 #20
    Because of demographics. Information on who you are, what you pay, what you watch, what you like all help in companies providing the best product to please everyone.
  22. Mar 22, 2010 #21
    Read better, I talked about mosaics.

    What happens if 50% of your cells haven SRY gene, but 50% don't?
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 24, 2017
  23. Mar 22, 2010 #22


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Homework Helper

    If you look like that in a bikini - I don't care what you genes say !!!!
  24. Mar 22, 2010 #23
    This isn't a discussion topic I'm familiar with (just to be clear: I do have a gender, as well as a sex..!), and as much as I'm never keen on arguing over what might just be semantics, I'll chip in and see what is said.

    I'm no sociologist, but it seems to me that gender is a social construction of the illustration of traits perceived to pertain to one, or both, of the sexes. In this set up, I don't see how someone can claim to have 'no gender'. Whether you're conscious of it or not, you'll have tendencies that society can, and will ascribe to one, or indeed both, of the sexes. It feels to me like rather than gender, this is an issue related to sexuality. Though, with my previous thoughts on the fact that gender is a construction based on ones attitudes, etc, it would then follow that it is possible, probable even, that some will have a different 'gender' depending on the culture they find themselves in.

    (also is the discussion on genes etc. properly limited to producing an answer for the 'sex' of an individual rather than gender?)
  25. Mar 22, 2010 #24


    User Avatar
    Science Advisor
    Gold Member

    waht, you never cease to amaze me. :rofl:
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  26. Mar 22, 2010 #25
    No, I thought that was the case too. But you can have a guy whose female in every situation, he's gay, he spends time in front of the mirror, likes to gossip, likes to cook and what not.

    Still, he identifies as as male. He's called 'an effeminate guy'. Gender identity, like any identity is simply what one 'identifies' at, and I have no idea what that is supposed to mean at all, not in any thing, not only gender. But it works like that.

    I mean, take any subculture, not only gender. I mean, people that identify as Christian often have completely different interpretations thereof. And in fact, none of them really observes the bible, the bible says nothing of churches, it says we should all eat Halal meat only, it says we cannot rent or loan money with interest (in fact, the reason Muslims can't is because of the bible, Islam is a later religion), very view Christians observe this and they often invent some whole new crap with like going to hell if you don't pray or if you vote Obama.

    And they are all completely different in it, but they all identify as Christians, an 'identity' is not what you are, it's how you want to be called. I really can't care if people call me male or female, if my body was destroyed and I had to pick a new one from 50 male and 50 female I'd choose the one I find the most aesthetic. I'm maybe different from the topic subject as it wants to be called 'neuter', I just don't care what people call me or as what they see me. It's just a name without a meaning. If people want to exchange my name for 'Sheep****er' from now on that's fine with me, as long as they keep using it so I know I'm addressed, that they call me that doesn't mean that I **** sheep, now does it?

    Sure, but I'm just driving MotoH in a corner.

    Best way to beat them is fight them on their own terms, and still win. He said that gender is also genetic, I'm just showing that even then, also loses and it's not black and white at all.
Share this great discussion with others via Reddit, Google+, Twitter, or Facebook