Force field in spherical polar coordinates

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around determining whether a given force field is conservative, specifically examining the conditions under which a potential exists. The problem is set in the context of spherical polar coordinates.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Assumption checking, Conceptual clarification

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of the curl of the force field being zero and discuss the integration process over a constant angle. There are questions about the assumptions regarding the unit circle's center and the implications for the radial spacing element.

Discussion Status

Participants are actively questioning the assumptions made in the problem, particularly regarding the integration limits and the nature of the unit circle. Some guidance has been offered on simplifying expressions and considering the implications of a constant radius.

Contextual Notes

There is uncertainty about the center of the unit circle and how it affects the calculations. Additionally, the definition and implications of the radial spacing element are under discussion, particularly in relation to the constant radius of the circle.

MatinSAR
Messages
673
Reaction score
205
Homework Statement
A certain force field is given to me and I should do the following tasks to find out is it a conservative field or not.
Relevant Equations
pls see below.
Picture of question:
1702943544674.png

Part (a) : ##\nabla \times \vec F = 0## so a Potensial exists. I don't have problem with this part.
Part (b) : what I've done :
1702943893692.png

First experssion is 0 because ##\theta = \dfrac {\pi} {2}##. I don't know how to integrate over ##\theta ## when it is a constant.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Go back to where you wrote correctly $$d\vec{\lambda} = \hat r dr + r \hat \theta d \theta + r \sin \theta \hat \phi d \phi$$
Simplify this for integrating along the given unit circle.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
The problem doesn't state whether or not the unit circle is centered at the origin of the coordinate system. So, I don't know if you are meant to assume that it is.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
TSny said:
Go back to where you wrote correctly $$d\vec{\lambda} = \hat r dr + r \hat \theta d \theta + r \sin \theta \hat \phi d \phi$$
Simplify this for integrating along the given unit circle.
Is it the only way? I haven't done this before and I cannot understand what you mean ...
TSny said:
The problem doesn't state whether or not the unit circle is centered at the origin of the coordinate system. So, I don't know if you are meant to assume that it is.
I guess I don't want to assume that. According to the book final answer should be 0.

1702945890697.png
 
MatinSAR said:
Is it the only way? I haven't done this before and I cannot understand what you mean ...

I guess I don't want to assume that. According to the book final answer should be 0.
Let's assume the unit circle is centered at the origin. For ##d\vec{\lambda}## along this circle, what can you say about the values of ##r##, ##dr##, ##d\theta## and ##\sin \theta##?

Thus, what does ##d\vec{\lambda}## simplify to?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
TSny said:
Let's assume the unit circle is centered at the origin. For ##d\vec{\lambda}## along this circle, what can you say about the values of ##r##, ##dr##, ##d\theta## and ##\sin \theta##?

Thus, what does ##d\vec{\lambda}## simplify to?
I have checked my book again yet I could not find sth similar to this. I guess:
##r=1##
##\sin \theta=1##
##dr=dr##
##d \theta= 0##

If I'm right the second expression should be 0 to and I will get 0 as final answer.
 
MatinSAR said:
I have checked my book again yet I could not find sth similar to this. I guess:
##r=1##
##\sin \theta=1##
##dr=dr##
##d \theta= 0##
OK, these look right. But you should be able to say more about ##dr##. Then you should be able to simplify the expression for ##d \vec \lambda## to a very simple result (which should make sense intuitively).

Then you can go on to think about the expression ##\vec F \cdot d\vec \lambda##
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PhDeezNutz and MatinSAR
TSny said:
OK, these look right. But you should be able to say more about ##dr##. Then you should be able to simplify the expression for ##d \vec \lambda## to a very simple result (which should make sense intuitively).

Then you can go on to think about the expression ##\vec F \cdot d\vec \lambda##
Sorry for taking your time ... Should ##dr## be 0 for the circle?

Can't I answer without ##dr##? The first expression was zero and ##dr## doesn't change anything.
 
MatinSAR said:
Sorry for taking your time ... Should ##dr## be 0 for the circle?
MatinSAR said:
Homework Statement: A certain force field is given to me and I should do the following tasks to find out is it a conservative field or not.
Relevant Equations: pls see below.

Picture of question:
View attachment 337396
Part (a) : ##\nabla \times \vec F = 0## so a Potensial exists. I don't have problem with this part.
Part (b) : what I've done :
View attachment 337397
First experssion is 0 because ##\theta = \dfrac {\pi} {2}##. I don't know how to integrate over ##\theta ## when it is a constant.
Is this from a published source?? If so, please identify.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #10
hutchphd said:
Is this from a published source?? If so, please identify.
Yes.
This book is Arfken mathematical methods for physicists.
 
  • #11
MatinSAR said:
Should dr be 0 for the circle?
You tell us. What is the definition of dr?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #12
Orodruin said:
You tell us. What is the definition of dr?
Radial spacing element If I have translated correctly.
Actually translating it to english is harder than its explanation for me.
 
  • #13
MatinSAR said:
Radial spacing element If I have translated correctly.
Actually translating it to english is harder than its explanation for me.
So how does radius change along the circle if r=1?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #14
Orodruin said:
So how does radius change along the circle if r=1?
It doesn't change since radius is constant for a circle.
 
  • #15
Do you have access to Griffiths? Chapter 3.4.4. This field looks a lot like a dipole pointing in the z-direction. Just sayin’

That should answer part C.

Edit: A lot of dipole questions this week.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #16
PhDeezNutz said:
Do you have access to Griffiths? Chapter 3.4.4. This field looks a lot like a dipole pointing in the z-direction. Just sayin’

That should answer part C.
Yes. I will check. Thanks.
 
  • #17
For part B can’t you use part A……via Stokes Theorem. Although I do think it is instructive to do the line integral directly.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #18
MatinSAR said:
It doesn't change since radius is constant for a circle.
And therefore dr is …
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MatinSAR
  • #19
PhDeezNutz said:
For part B can’t you use part A……via Stokes Theorem. Although I do think it is instructive to do the line integral directly.
Good idea!
Orodruin said:
And therefore dr is …
0 i think.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PhDeezNutz
  • #20
MatinSAR said:
0 i think.
Indeed.

You can also just use the parametrization ##\varphi = t## along with ##r=1## and ##\theta =\pi/2##. By definition
$$
dr = \frac{dr}{dt} dt
$$
and it should be pretty clear that ##dr/dt = 0##.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PhDeezNutz and MatinSAR

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
Replies
8
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
1K