Generalised Momentum: Defs & Meaning

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definitions of generalized momentum in the context of classical mechanics, specifically comparing two formulations: one based on the Lagrangian and the other on kinetic energy. The scope includes theoretical definitions and implications of potential energy dependencies.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that generalized momentum can be defined as ##p_i = \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q_i}## or ##p_i = \frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i##, questioning the conditions under which these definitions are equivalent.
  • There is a suggestion that the definitions may only be equal when potential energy is independent of the coordinate ##q##.
  • One participant emphasizes that differentiations should be performed with respect to the time derivative of ##q##, not ##q## itself, and confirms that ##T## refers to kinetic energy.
  • Another participant raises the possibility that potential energy ##V## could depend on ##\dot q##, prompting a question about the validity of the kinetic energy-based definition in such cases.
  • A participant points out that in systems with magnetic fields and electric charges, potential energy does depend on velocities, suggesting that the definition involving kinetic energy may not be applicable.
  • One participant asserts that the canonical definition of momentum is strictly ##p_i=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i}##, indicating a strong preference for this formulation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the definitions of generalized momentum, with no consensus reached on which definition is more general or applicable under varying conditions.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the dependence of potential energy on velocity and the implications for the definitions of generalized momentum. The discussion highlights the need for clarity on the conditions under which each definition is valid.

Incand
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I have two books that define generalised momentum differently. Either
##p_i = \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q_i}##
or
##p_i = \frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i}##.
Is this since defining generalised momentum only make sense when the potential energy is independent of a coordinate ##q## and hence the above definitions are equal? Or is one of these more general than the other?
 
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The differentiations should be done with respect to the time derivative of ##q##, not ##q## itself. Is ##T## the kinetic energy? In most simple mechanical systems the potential energy is not dependent on velocity.
 
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hilbert2 said:
The differentiations should be done with respect to the time derivative of ##q##, not ##q## itself. Is ##T## the kinetic energy? In most simple mechanical systems the potential energy is not dependent on velocity.

Thanks, missed the dots. Added them now. Yes ##T## is the kinetic energy. Is it possible that the potential energy ##V## depends on ##\dot q##? Is one of these definitions correct in that case?
 
If there are magnetic fields and electric charges in the system, the potential energy depends on velocities. Then you can't use the definition where you differentiate ##T##.
 
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Cheers! That was a good example!
 
The momentum canonically conjugated to the generalized coordinate ##q^i## is defined by
$$p_i=\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}^i},$$
and nothing else!
 
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