Generic Local Electromagnetic field - MTW Ex 4.1

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Exercise 4.1 from MTW, focusing on the concept of a 'generic' electromagnetic (EM) field, its components, and the implications of transitioning to a different reference frame, particularly in relation to the Poynting vector and energy density. Participants explore theoretical aspects and mathematical expressions related to electric and magnetic fields in various frames.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a 'generic' field consists of an arbitrary electric field and an arbitrary magnetic field, while others argue that it may also include a radiation field, which is a special case.
  • One participant notes that transitioning to the rocket frame leads to the B field becoming zero, questioning the assumption that B becomes parallel to E.
  • Another participant emphasizes that excluding certain special cases leads to E and B being parallel and nonzero.
  • There is a discussion about the mathematical expressions involving the energy flow and energy density, with some participants attempting to derive relationships between E and B in different frames.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about whether their approach to proving that E and B become parallel is valid, suggesting it might be a "cheat."
  • Later contributions indicate that a participant successfully resolved their issues with the expressions for E X B, leading to a clearer understanding of the problem.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of a 'generic' field, with multiple competing views on its components. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of transitioning to the rocket frame and the behavior of the fields in that context.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the assumptions underlying their calculations and the dependence on specific definitions of the fields. There are unresolved mathematical steps in the derivations presented.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be useful for those studying electromagnetic theory, particularly in the context of special relativity and field transformations, as well as for individuals working through similar exercises in advanced physics texts.

TerryW
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Can anyone help me with Ex 4.1 in MTW?

What is a 'generic' field? My expectation is that it would comprise an Electric Field, with arbitrary direction, a Magnetic Field, also with arbitrary direction, and a radiation field (E and B of equal magnitude) , radiating in an arbitrary direction.

Trying to put this together however to get the Poynting density of energy flow and the density of energy is a bit of a mess however, so I suspect my expectation is wrong.

Moving on to the next bit of the problem, if you do define the unit vector n and velocity parameter α as shown, then a solution to this is a radiation field with E along the x axis, B along the y axis, producing a Poynting vector along the z axis. If you then translate to the rocket frame, E X B disappears because B becomes zero, not because B becomes parallel to E. I can't see how B ends up parallel to E.

Can anyone help?


TerryW
 
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TerryW said:
What is a 'generic' field? My expectation is that it would comprise an Electric Field, with arbitrary direction, a Magnetic Field, also with arbitrary direction, and a radiation field (E and B of equal magnitude) , radiating in an arbitrary direction.
No, just the first two - an arbitrary E field and an arbitrary B field. The "radiation field", more commonly called a null field, is just a special case.

Moving on to the next bit of the problem, if you do define the unit vector n and velocity parameter α as shown, then a solution to this is a radiation field with E along the x axis, B along the y axis, producing a Poynting vector along the z axis.
This is one of the three special cases that you were told NOT to consider. Excluding these three cases, you'll get E and B parallel and both nonzero.
 
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A generic EM field is simply one which, relative to a given (in this case inertial) frame, splits into an arbitrary E field and an arbitrary B field.

Why do you think the B field will become zero once we boost to the rocket frame in general i.e. why should the ##\alpha## parameter for the boost velocity necessarily take us to the rest frame of the source of this EM field?
 
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Hi Bill_K and WannabeNewton,

Thanks for clearing up what the generic field is. I've re-read MTW and can see it now but I don't feel it is totally clear (unusually for MTW!)

As for thinking that the B field will become zero, I noticed that a solution to the equation for the ratio of energy flow to energy density is Bxsinhα and Eycoshα with E = B,
giving an E X B in the z direction. So when you translate to the rocket frame traveling along the z axis, B becomes zero. At which point I realized I was well off track.

I've already had a go at resolving the problem based on what you have told me. I haven't cracked it yet and will drop another post if I get terminally stuck.

I appreciate your help so far and hope you will be on hand if I need further help.


Regards


TeryW
 
Still having problems.

My attempt at proving that the Electric and Magnetic fields become parallel and aligned to the direction of travel of the rocket is attached in a PDF. I've tried to use the invariants E2 - B2 and the equation for tanh2α n to get some more expressions involving the parallel and perpendicular components of E and B which could be used to reduce my expression for EXB to zero but without success.

On the other hand, considering the expression EXB = (E2 + B2)tanh2α n, which is a generic expression for a generic filed...I could say that if we were in the rocket frame, then we are now moving with the flow of energy, so α = 0, leading to the required result, but maybe that is a bit of a cheat?


Regards


TerryW
 

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I've revisited the problem and worked out that my expression for EXB does all cancel out. The first two lines γ[…] and γβ[…] disappear because the parallel components are zero then I use the tanh2α formula to show that γ2[…] + γ2β[…..] - γ2β2[….] reduces to zero.
 
That's awesome Terry! I'm glad it worked out.
 
Looking at my original manuscript, if I recognise early on that the parallel components of E and B are zero, I can get to my last expression for ExB more or less straight away!

Much tidier!

TerryW
 

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