Geometries of potential theory (fluid mechanics)

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the geometrical aspects of potential theory in fluid mechanics, specifically focusing on the extraction of geometric information from stream functions and the application of various mathematical methods to analyze fluid flow patterns. Participants explore concepts related to the Laplace equation, streamlines, and methods for calculating geometries associated with potential functions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks clarification on how to extract geometric information (L and h) from a given stream function, referencing specific formulas from their fluid mechanics textbook.
  • Another participant suggests using the formula for volume flow along two streamlines to determine height (h).
  • A participant explains that potential theory derives stream functions from solutions to the Laplace equation, emphasizing the need for knowledge in partial differential equations and vector calculus.
  • Discussion includes the method of "conformal mapping" as a mathematical technique for transforming known solutions to more complex geometries.
  • Participants mention the use of fictitious sources and sinks to create flow patterns and relate this to numerical methods like "panel methods" for external flow computations.
  • One participant expresses a desire to understand how to calculate geometries using the second method involving fictitious sources and sinks, questioning the clarity of their textbook.
  • A later reply proposes finding stagnation points for L and maximum velocity points for h, questioning the reasoning behind the maximum velocity at the top of a Rankine oval.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding and familiarity with the mathematical background required for potential theory. There is no consensus on the best method for calculating the geometries, and multiple approaches are discussed without resolution.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their textbook's clarity and the assumptions it makes, which may hinder their understanding of the material. The discussion reflects a range of mathematical techniques and their applicability to fluid mechanics problems.

Nikitin
Messages
734
Reaction score
27
Hello! My book (fluid mechanics by White) doesn't explain the formulas it uses for finding geometric information about a potential field. For instance, sometimes if a stream-function is kept constant it, will form a figure like the one in this picture.

https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1379638_10201611755512363_1918244517_n.jpg
Its stream-function: ##\psi = U_{\infty} r \sin(\theta) + m(\theta_1 - \theta_2) ## (8.34), where ##\theta_1## and ##\theta_2## are the angles relative to the source and sink.

What is the general way of thinking for extracting information (like in this case, L and h) about the geometries of potential-functions? Why is L and h that weird formula in 8.35, in this case?

PS: Sorry for flooding this forum with so many questions, lately. I'll make up for it in a few years when I'm done with my studies.
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
Perhaps I should use the formula for volume flow along two streamlines to find h?
[tex]d \psi_2 - d \psi_1 = Q = h \cdot V[/tex]
 
It's called potential theory because the stream functions, etc. are derived from the solutions to the Laplace equation:

[itex]\nabla^{2}\phi[/itex] = 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_equation

In order to derive the stream functions, you'll need to know partial differential equations and vector calculus, among other topics. If you are studying intro fluid mechanics, you probably are only encountering PDEs and vector calculus for the first time, if at all.
 
There is a lot of math theory behind this, though its practical use been replaced by other types of computer modelling. The math applies to other areas of physics, for example modelling electromagnetic fields.

A math-based method is "conformal mapping". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_map. The basic idea is to take a known solution for a simple geometry, then create mathematical transformations that change the shape of the boundary. Applying the same transformation to the streamlines gives the (exact) solution of the more complicated problem. For example that was how the flow pattern round the Joukowski aerofoil shape was first derived.

Another method is to invent fictitious sources and sinks for the fluid flow, such that they produce a flow pattern normal to the boundary of the real problem. (The diagram at the top of your image might be taking that approach). In the general case, this links up with methods of solving partial differential equations or integral equations using Green's functions. It was developed into a numerical method where "dipoles" were placed around the boundary of the component instead of using arbitrary pairs of sources and sinks, and the computer calculated the strength of each dipole to match the boundary conditions. This was (and still is) the basic idea of "panel methods" for computing external flows round objects - there are some more techniques required to approximate the effect of the boundary layer, etc, but that's going beyond your question.
 
SteamKing said:
It's called potential theory because the stream functions, etc. are derived from the solutions to the Laplace equation:

[itex]\nabla^{2}\phi[/itex] = 0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potential_theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace's_equation

In order to derive the stream functions, you'll need to know partial differential equations and vector calculus, among other topics. If you are studying intro fluid mechanics, you probably are only encountering PDEs and vector calculus for the first time, if at all.

Well, it is indeed only my 2nd year and the fluid mechanics course is just an intro. However we're working on our fourth math-class out of a total of five, and we have gone through much of the formalities behind potential theory. So go ahead and fire with the big guns, as I am familiar with the laplace equation and the derivation of both the stream and velocity functions.

AlephZero said:
There is a lot of math theory behind this, though its practical use been replaced by other types of computer modelling. The math applies to other areas of physics, for example modelling electromagnetic fields.

A math-based method is "conformal mapping". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conformal_map. The basic idea is to take a known solution for a simple geometry, then create mathematical transformations that change the shape of the boundary. Applying the same transformation to the streamlines gives the (exact) solution of the more complicated problem. For example that was how the flow pattern round the Joukowski aerofoil shape was first derived.

Another method is to invent fictitious sources and sinks for the fluid flow, such that they produce a flow pattern normal to the boundary of the real problem. (The diagram at the top of your image might be taking that approach). In the general case, this links up with methods of solving partial differential equations or integral equations using Green's functions. It was developed into a numerical method where "dipoles" were placed around the boundary of the component instead of using arbitrary pairs of sources and sinks, and the computer calculated the strength of each dipole to match the boundary conditions. This was (and still is) the basic idea of "panel methods" for computing external flows round objects - there are some more techniques required to approximate the effect of the boundary layer, etc, but that's going beyond your question.

Thanks for the reply! But how do do I calculate the geometries when using the second method?

I intuively thouht about using the formula
[tex]d \psi_2 - d \psi_1 = Q = \int_1^2 \vec{V} \cdot \vec{n} \cdot dh = h \cdot V[/tex] to find the top height where Q is the volume flow per width and ##\vec{n}## is the normal-vector of h. Because I mean, in the middle (x=0) h is perpendicular to both the streamline ##\psi_1## and ##\psi_2##.

Anyway the thing is that the fluid mechanics book we use is very bad as it is unclear and often assumes lots of things "go without saying". So I just need some way of knowing how to handle this stuff.
 
Last edited:
Ah, so maybe I should find the stagnation points (for L) and the maximum velocity points for h? However, why would the velocity be at a max on the top of the rankine oval in the picture in the OP?
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
Replies
0
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
4K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
31
Views
4K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K