Geometry and algebraic equations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the intersection of a circle and a line represented by parametric equations, focusing on deriving equations related to the area enclosed by the circle, line, and y-axis. Participants explore the implications of these equations and the geometric relationships involved, including angles and area calculations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • The first participant presents three equations to describe the system involving a circle and a line, seeking confirmation on their correctness.
  • Some participants suggest alternative parametrizations for the tangent vector of the line, indicating that the choice of representation can affect the calculations.
  • There is acknowledgment of potential complexity in the problem, particularly regarding the nature of the arc formed by the intersection, which can be either convex or concave.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the completeness of their verification of the equations, indicating a need for further review.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the initial equations presented are on the right track, but there is no consensus on their complete correctness. Some participants express uncertainty and suggest further examination is needed.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem involves nuanced geometric considerations, such as the convexity or concavity of the arc, which may complicate the analysis. There are also unresolved aspects regarding the parametrization of the tangent vectors.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in geometric intersections, parametric equations, and mathematical reasoning in physics and engineering contexts may find this discussion relevant.

member 428835
Hi PF!

I'm given a circle with parametric representation ##x=r\sin\theta,y=h+r\cos\theta##. There is also a line, which has the parametric equation ##x=x,y=\cot (\beta) x##. Note the line makes angle ##\beta## with the y-axis. When the circle intersects the line, it makes an angle, call this angle ##\alpha##. The 2D area of the enclosed y-axis,circular arc, and line, together form an area, call this ##A##. Given ##\beta,\alpha,A##, I want to determine ##h,r,\theta_e## where ##\theta_e## is the ##\theta## value that intersects with the line. See the image below for clarity.

I've come up with three equations to specify the system: can you confirm these are correct? I use subscribts ##c## and ##l## to denote circle and line respectively.

1) area equation
$$
\int_0^{\theta_e} y_c \, dx - \int_0^{x_c(\theta_e)} y_l \, dx = A \implies\\
\int_0^{\theta_e} y_c x_c'(\theta) \, d\theta - \int_0^{x_c(\theta_e)} y_l \, dx = A \implies\\
\boxed{\frac{1}{2} r (\sin (\theta_e ) (2 h+r \csc (\beta ) \sin (\beta -\theta_e))+\theta_e r) = A}.
$$

2) circle intersecting line equation
$$
x_c = x_l,\,\,\,y_c=y_l\implies\\
\boxed{h+r\cos\theta_e = r\sin\theta_e\cot\beta}.
$$

3) dot product of unit-tangent vectors for circle and line intersection must equal ##\cos\alpha##

$$
\left.\frac{\langle x_c'(\theta),y_c'(\theta)\rangle}{|| \langle x_c'(\theta),y_c'(\theta)\rangle||} \cdot \frac{\langle x_l,y_l'(x)\rangle}{|| \langle x_l,y_l'(x)\rangle||}\right|_{\theta=\theta_e} = \cos\alpha\implies\\
\boxed{-\sin(\theta_e-\beta)=\cos\alpha}.
$$

IMG_1378.jpg

How do these equations look? (OOPS, the bottom figure labels the upper-right angle ##\theta##, but it should read ##\alpha##. My fault!)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
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I didn't look over everything, but most of it looks good. I do see in the dot product with the line that goes through the origin, you can either use ## (x,y) ## or ## (1,dy/dx) ##, but not ##(x, dy/dx) ##.
e.g. You can parametrize the line with ## x=x ## and ## y=y(x) ##, and instead of using ## (dx/dt,dy/dt) ##, you use ##(dx/dx,dy/dx) ## for the tangent vector.
 
Last edited:
Charles Link said:
I didn't look over everything, but most of it looks good. I do see in the dot product with the line that goes through the origin, you can either use ## (x,y) ## or ## (1,dy/dx) ##, but not ##(x, dy/dx) ##.
e.g. You can parametrize the line with ## x=x ## and ## y=y(x) ##, and instead of using ## (dx/dt,dy/dt) ##, you use ##(dx/dx,dy/dx) ##.
Shoot, I meant 1 there ***typo***, so dx/dx. Thanks. So this is correct: I'm not crazy?
 
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It looks very good, but I did not yet study it in enough detail to verify whether it is completely correct. I think you did a couple of things rather well, including getting the direction and position of ## \theta ## correct.
 
Last edited:
Thanks. See when I solve there are some tricky parts. For example, the arc can be convex or concave. Anyone see anything tricky I'm missing?
 
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