Meden Agan
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And so guys, what shall I do to go on?
You can already solve (I think) the symmetric case where ##\alpha = \beta## and ##s_{\alpha} = s_{\beta}##.Meden Agan said:And so guys, what shall I do to go on?
Yes.Steve4Physics said:What remains is to demonstrate that this symmetry is necessary to achieve the maximum catenary length. Is that what are you trying to achieve?
Even if you can, how would you show the third condition is satisfied?Meden Agan said:I've been thinking about this: can we prove that ##\alpha = \beta## is the only possible solution maximizing the hanging section of the catenary through such a Theorem1?
1Theorem. If ##\ell(\alpha, \beta)## 1) is a continuously differentiable function of two variables ##\alpha## and ##\beta##, 2) satisfies ##\ell(\alpha, \beta) = \ell(\beta, \alpha)## for all ##(\alpha,\beta)## (i.e., is symmetric), and 3) has a unique interior maximizer ##(\alpha,\beta)##, then that maximizer must lie on the diagonal ##\alpha = \beta##, i.e. ##\alpha_{\max} = \beta_{\max}##.
I'm not at all sure about the validity of this theorem.
I don't think it works. E.g. consider @haruspex 's (minimisation) example in Post #8:Meden Agan said:I've been thinking about this: can we prove that ##\alpha = \beta## is the only possible solution maximizing the hanging section of the catenary through such a Theorem1?
1Theorem. If ##\ell(\alpha, \beta)## 1) is a continuously differentiable function of two variables ##\alpha## and ##\beta##, 2) satisfies ##\ell(\alpha, \beta) = \ell(\beta, \alpha)## for all ##(\alpha,\beta)## (i.e., is symmetric), and 3) has a unique interior maximizer ##(\alpha,\beta)##, then that maximizer must lie on the diagonal ##\alpha = \beta##, i.e. ##\alpha_{\max} = \beta_{\max}##.
I'm not at all sure about the validity of this theorem.
You're spot on. We could have theoretically proved the third condition rigorously by taking the derivatives with respect to ##\alpha## and ##\beta## and showing that they are equal to zero at a single point ##\alpha = \beta##. But, this doesn't happen, as I wrote in post #9.haruspex said:Even if you can, how would you show the third condition is satisfied?
At first, I didn't fully understand post #21. If you could make an approximate graphical sketch of your setup, I would write down the required maths :-)haruspex said:What about my post #21? I haven’t seen a reaction to it since I clarified the idea in post #24.
To recap, just consider the ##\alpha## side, up to the point where the rope is horizontal, wherever that is. Let the suspended length that side be ##r##. We can drop the ##\alpha## subscripts.
Write the vertical force balance equation and maximise ##r/s## wrt ##\alpha##.
This allows us to maximise ##r_\alpha/s_\alpha## separately from ##r_\beta/s_\beta##.
How would you show that?haruspex said:It remains to show this maximises ##(r_\alpha+r_\beta)/(s_\alpha+s_\beta)##.
I've been doing it by first taking a copy of the post I'm about to make, just as text, then doing preview/refresh in some combination. This shows the preview correctly but it screws the post, so discard the post, make any corrections in the saved copy, then paste that back in and post it.Steve4Physics said:Edits as I can't preview to check LaTeX.
But the result you got there, with opposite signs, cannot be right. As you agreed, swapping the angles around must convert Exp 1 into Exp 2, so swapping the angles in a solution should also be a solution.Meden Agan said:We could have theoretically proved the third condition rigorously by taking the derivatives with respect to α and β and showing that they are equal to zero at a single point α=β. But, this doesn't happen, as I wrote in post #9.
True, but it largely works. It’s just that instead of having only to discriminate maxima from minima you also have to worry about saddle points.Meden Agan said:taking a partial derivative alone is not sufficient to conclude that we’ve found an extremum
@Steve4Physics has kindly done that in post #38, though I would have put point P a bit to the left; doesn’t seem to be at the bottom of the curve (or could be my astigmatism).Meden Agan said:If you could make an approximate graphical sketch of your setup, I would write down the required maths :-)
Given an expression of the form ##F=\frac{p+q}{r+s}##, and having shown that ##\frac{p}{r}\leq t## and ##\frac{q}{s}\leq t##, all variables positive, what bound can you put on ##F##?Meden Agan said:How would you show that?
As in another recent thread on hanging ropes, it does not seem to matter whether the hanging section of the rope is uniform. There are enough equations without it, so it must be irrelevant.erobz said:Don't you have the constraint from arc length to somehow use yet?
$$ s_{\alpha} + s_{ \beta} - L = \int \sqrt{ 1 + \left( \frac{dy}{dx} \right)^2 } dx $$
We have $$\frac{p}{r} \le t. \tag 1$$ Multiplying both sides of the inequality by ##r > 0##, we have ##p \le t r##. By adding ##q > 0## to both sides of the previous inequality, we obtain $$p + q \le tr + q. \tag{1.1}$$haruspex said:Given an expression of the form ##F=\frac{p+q}{r+s}##, and having shown that ##\frac{p}{r}\leq t## and ##\frac{q}{s}\leq t##, all variables positive, what bound can you put on ##F##?
As you found, ##F\leq t##, and that does it.Meden Agan said:We have $$\frac{p}{r} \le t. \tag 1$$ Multiplying both sides of the inequality by ##r > 0##, we have ##p \le t r##. By adding ##q > 0## to both sides of the previous inequality, we obtain $$p + q \le tr + q. \tag{1.1}$$
Same way, we have $$\frac{q}{s} \le t. \tag 2$$ Multiplying both sides of the inequality by ##s > 0##, we have ##q \le t s##. By adding ##tr > 0## to both sides of the previous inequality, we obtain $$q + tr \le ts + tr. \tag{2.1}$$
Taking the two inequalities ##(1.1)## and ##(2.1)##, we obtain the chain of inequalities $$p + q \le tr + q \le ts + tr.$$ Taking the first and the last one:
$$\begin{aligned}
p + q &\le ts + tr \\
&= t(s+r),
\end{aligned}$$
or, equivalently,
$$\boxed{\underbrace{\frac{p+q}{s+r}}_{\displaystyle F} \le t}.$$
But, I've a few doubts. Here ##t = \left(\dfrac{r}{s}\right)_{\max}##, with ##\left(\dfrac{r}{s}\right)_{\max}## obtained by substituting ##\alpha_\max## for ##\alpha## into the expression for ##r/s##. Correct?
If so, haven't we only shown that ##\dfrac{r_\alpha +r_\beta}{s_\alpha + s_\beta}## is maximized by ##\left(\dfrac{r}{s}\right)_{\max}##? It would still remain to show explicitly that ##\alpha_\max## is the angle that also maximizes ##\dfrac{r_\alpha +r_\beta}{s_\alpha + s_\beta}##.
Here below is my attempt. Please take a look at it and tell me if there are any flaws.haruspex said:To recap, just consider the ##\alpha## side, up to the point where the rope is horizontal, wherever that is. Let the suspended length that side be ##r##. We can drop the ##\alpha## subscripts.
Write the vertical force balance equation and maximise ##r/s## wrt ##\alpha##.
This allows us to maximise ##r_\alpha/s_\alpha## separately from ##r_\beta/s_\beta##. It remains to show this maximises ##(r_\alpha+r_\beta)/(s_\alpha+s_\beta)##.
Probably my astigmatism!haruspex said:Bu@Steve4Physics has kindly done that in post #38, though I would have put point P a bit to the left; doesn’t seem to be at the bottom of the curve (or could be my astigmatism).
All looks ok to me.Meden Agan said:Here below is my attempt. Please take a look at it and tell me if there are any flaws.
Let us take an infinitesimal piece of cord, long ##\mathrm ds##, resting on a plane inclined at an angle ##\alpha## to the horizontal. The weight of the elements is ##\lambda g \, \mathrm ds##, where ##\lambda## is the linear density of the cord. The component parallel to the plane (directed downwards) is ##\lambda g \sin \alpha \, \mathrm ds##. The normal reaction is ##\lambda g \cos \alpha \, \mathrm ds##, so the maximum static friction available (directed upwards) is ##\mu \, \lambda g \cos \alpha \, \mathrm ds##. Writing the axial equilibrium (positive upward direction) according to Newton's ##2^{\text{nd}}## Law of motion: $$T(s+ \mathrm ds) - T(s) = \lambda g \, \mathrm ds \left(\mu \cos \alpha- \sin \theta \alpha \right), \tag{1}$$ and taking the limit ##\mathrm ds \to 0## on the LHS, we have ##T(s+ \mathrm ds) - T(s) \to \mathrm dT##; so, ##(1)## becomes $$\mathrm dT = \lambda g \, \mathrm ds \left(\mu \cos \alpha- \sin \alpha \right). \tag{2}$$ Integrating ##(2)## from the point where the rope detaches from the slope ##(T= T_\alpha, \, s = s_\alpha)## to the top end of the rope ##(T_{\text{top}}=0, \, s=0)## gives $$T_\alpha = \lambda g \, s_\alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha- \sin \alpha \right). \tag{3}$$
Let the length of the hanging section on that side be ##r_\alpha##. So, its weight is ##\lambda g \, r_\alpha##.
This way, the total length ##L_{\text{tot, left}}## of the cord under consideration is equal to the length of the cord from its left top end to the point where the string detaches from the left slope ##(s_\alpha)##, plus the length of the hanging section on the left side ##(r_\alpha)##.
Thus, ##L_{\text{tot, left}} = s_\alpha + r_\alpha##.
The weight of the left hanging section of the rope, ##\lambda g \, r_\alpha##, must be balanced by the vertical component, ##T_\alpha \sin \alpha##, of the tension at the point where it joins the part of the cord touching the left incline. We hence have ##T_\alpha \sin \alpha = \lambda g \, r_\alpha## or, equivalently, $$T_\alpha = \frac{\lambda g \, r_\alpha}{\sin \alpha}. \tag{4}$$
Equating the two expressions ##(3)## and ##(4)## for ##T_\alpha##:
$$\begin{aligned}
\lambda g \, s_\alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right) &= \frac{\lambda g \, r_\alpha}{\sin \alpha} \\
\cancel{\lambda g} \, s_\alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha- \sin \alpha \right) &= \frac{\cancel{\lambda g} \, r_\alpha}{\sin \alpha} \\
s_\alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right) &= \frac{r_\alpha}{\sin \alpha} \\
s_\alpha \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right) &= r_\alpha,
\end{aligned}$$
which gives $$r_\alpha = s_\alpha \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right). \tag{5}$$
The suspended fraction ##f## we are trying to maximize is ##f = \dfrac{r_\alpha}{L_{\text{tot, left}}}##. So:
$$\begin{aligned}
f &= \frac{r_\alpha}{L_{\text{tot, left}}} \\
&= \frac{r_\alpha}{s_\alpha + r_\alpha} \\
&= \frac{s_\alpha \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}{s_\alpha + s_\alpha \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)} \\
&= \frac{s_\alpha \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}{s_\alpha \left(1+ \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)\right)} \\
&= \frac{\cancel{s_\alpha} \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}{\cancel{s_\alpha} \left(1+ \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)\right)} \\
&= \frac{\sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}{1+ \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)},
\end{aligned}$$
thus ##f=\dfrac{\sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}{1+ \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)}##.
Let ##F(\alpha) = \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right)##. Then: $$f = \frac{F(\alpha)}{1+ F(\alpha)} \qquad \text{where} \quad F(\alpha) = \sin \alpha \left(\mu \cos \alpha - \sin \alpha \right).$$
This expression for ##f## clearly is a monotonically increasing function of ##F(\alpha)##. And since the suspended fraction increases as ##F(\alpha)## increases, it suffices to maximise ##F(\alpha)## in order to maximise ##f##.
Differentiating ##F(\alpha)##, we have ##F'(\alpha) = \mu \cos(2 \alpha) - \sin(2 \alpha)##. It is zero when ##\mu = \tan (2 \alpha_{\max})##. Then: $$\boxed{\alpha_{\max} = \frac{\arctan \mu}{2}},$$ as desired.
Analogous reasoning leads to ##\beta_{\max} = \dfrac{\arctan \mu}{2}##, so ##\alpha_{\max} = \beta_{\max}##.