Germanwings 9525 Crash in French Alps

[Astronuc]

I saw headlines and news yesterday.

Very strange situation indeed - the plane was in a controlled dive, on it's flight path, for about 8 minutes. Why?

Pilot in German Airbus crash was locked out of cockpit: New York Times
http://news.yahoo.com/pilot-german-airbus-crash-locked-cockpit-york-times-234950004--sector.html

Minute by minute, the demise of doomed German flight
http://news.yahoo.com/minute-minute-demise-doomed-german-flight-201006515.html

Yesterday -

Plane crash kills 150 people in French Alps; black box found
http://news.yahoo.com/french-media-report-plane-crash-alps-148-aboard-105318651--finance.html

Tearful crash victims' relatives gather at airports
http://news.yahoo.com/relatives-german-plane-crash-victims-gather-barcelona-airport-144936211.html

Why Germanwings flight might have crashed over the Alps
http://news.yahoo.com/why-germanwings-flight-might-crashed-over-alps-170804936.html

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Very strange that there was not a crew person also in the cockpit when the other pilot was outside.

 

[phyzguy]

One can imagine all kinds of scenarios:

(1) The pilot goes to the bathroom, and the co-pilot decides to crash the plane on purpose.
(2) The pilot goes to the bathroom, the copilot has a heart attack (or some other incapacitating emergency), and the pilot can't get back in.
...

Will we know more as time goes on? If the voice recorder just tells that the pilot was locked out, but doesn't reveal the reason, and the data recorder shows that the plane dove into a mountain, we may never know what really happened.

 

[russ_watters]

One can imagine all kinds of scenarios:

(2) The pilot goes to the bathroom, the copilot has a heart attack (or some other incapacitating emergency), and the pilot can't get back in.

That was my first guess. Trouble is, (as you said) if that's what happened, we may never know unless the pilot groaned or said something before collapsing.

What I want to know though is how a pilot can even get locked-out of the cockpit!? Doesn't he have a key or a code?

 

[nsaspook]

What I want to know though is how a pilot can even get locked-out of the cockpit!? Doesn't he have a key or a code?

I would think they would have a unlock over-ride system that's mechanical (door bar that has to be removed to exit or enter) and/or a timed unlock sequence that a person inside can counter-key to maintain lock on the door. In ether case the person inside has positive control of the door for at least the period of time needed to land the plane or crash into the side of a mountain.

 

[russ_watters]

I would think they would have a unlock over-ride system that's mechanical (door bar that has to be removed to exit or enter) and/or a timed unlock sequence that a person inside can counter-key to maintain lock on the door. In ether case the person inside has positive control of the door for at least the period of time needed to land the plane or crash into the side of a mountain.

Yeah, that was kinda dumb on my part: clearly the person inside needs sole/positive control over the door when your concern is security. It's a double-edged sword, if (as Greg suggests) you don't ensure you have a second person in the cockpit at all times in case of emergency. Even if it is just to swap-out the co-pilot for a flight attendant whenever the co-pilot needs to use the restroom.

 

[phyzguy]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/report-france-jet-audio-shows-pilot-locked-out-of-cockpit/2015/03/25/08fea12a-d355-11e4-8b1e-274d670aa9c9_story.html says,

"Since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, airlines in the U.S. don’t leave one pilot alone in the cockpit. The standard operating procedure is that if one of the pilots leaves — for example to use the bathroom — a flight attendant takes their spot in the cockpit. It was not immediately clear if European airlines have adopted the same practice."

 

[Doug Huffman]

I found informed speculation at the Professional Pilots Rumor Network.
http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/558654-airbus-a320-crashed-southern-france.html
Now at 59 pages and 1200 comments.

US and EU flight directives are quite different. Two on deck policies vary among companies. There are a number of cockpit door designs and capabilities.

The Helios 522 crash was telling for the capability of the FA that did communicate at the last instant.

 

[Andre]

Airbus Crew can open in a case of emergency:

 

[Doug Huffman]

Then an informed unauthorized person/passenger can also. As I said, there are a number of door designs of varying capabilities. There is speculation that the locked out pilot failed the opening protocol.

 

[nsaspook]

Then an informed unauthorized person/passenger can also. As I said, there are a number of door designs of varying capabilities. There is speculation that the locked out pilot failed the opening protocol.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
Now that it's just about confirmed this was a murder suicide, that one person locking super-door has enabled the killing of a large number of people on planes since 9/11.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32063587
Now that it's just about confirmed this was a murder suicide, that one person locking super-door has enabled the killing of a large number of people on planes since 9/11.

Should never have been alone in the cockpit. This development is so very disturbing.

 

[Astronuc]

Just wow - Andreas Lubitz: What we know so far about the co-pilot of Airbus 320
https://news.yahoo.com/andreas-lubitz--what-we-know-about-the-co-pilot-of-airbus-320-123246684.html

French prosecutors confirm co-pilot Andreas Lubitz "wanted to destroy" the Germanwings flight that crashed in the French Alps, killing all 150 people on board. But who was Lubitz?

I'm speechless!

 

[Doug Huffman]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_by_pilot

Aircrew suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Southwest_Airlines_Flight_1771

It has been suggested that in the near future, this year, Lufthansa will spin-off Germanwings with a 40% salary cut.

 

[nsaspook]

IMO there is no technical solution to the murderous pilot unless we remove their absolute authority to fly the plane. Human minders and watchers can all be eliminated. (passively and easily by a impenetrable cabin door in this case)

Personally I just accept the 'mad' pilot probability as being very very low and worry about the thousand other things that can go wrong while flying.

 

[Borg]

I'm speechless!

Same here. I will never understand the evil that drives someone to destroy the lives of others.

 

[Czcibor]

I think about one weird Malaysian airline crash...

I don't want to say that pilots recently go postal.

I want to say that nowadays planes tend to be really safe. Pilots are trained properly and examined. There are proper maintenance procedures implemented so machines in civilized world are in good shape.

In consequence by eliminating such normal reasons for crash, the remaining crashes would be caused by weird stuff, that no one seriously thought how to prevent.

Plus with good black box there is a good way to learn what happened and otherwise no one would believe such explanation.

 

[Borg]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-after-co-pilot-blamed-for-germanwings-crash

several air carriers said they would implement a “rule of two” to avoid a pilot being left alone on the flight deck

Hopefully this will prevent a future tragedy like this from happening again.

 

[davenn]

heard on TV news this morning an aviation professional being interviewed
There have been 9 confirmed pilot suicide cases like this in the last 40 yrs. 7 of them have been in the last 20 yrs

Dave

 

[nsaspook]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...s-after-co-pilot-blamed-for-germanwings-crash

Hopefully this will prevent a future tragedy like this from happening again.

Unlikely, the next one will simply kill the other person in the cockpit if they are serious about mass murder.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Unlikely, the next one will simply kill the other person in the cockpit if they are serious about mass murder.

Little chance, is better than no chance.

 

[micromass]

How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

 

[nsaspook]

How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

The door also has an inside only manual deadbolt system to prevent someone from hacking the electronics.

 

[nsaspook]

Little chance, is better than no chance.

Yes, and the added cost is about zero for keeping two in the cabin with a crew member being the third to switch in and out.

 

[Doug Huffman]

Tell that to the unions.

 

[Andre]

How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

Which control tower? An aircraft traveling from A to B makes contact with Ground control of A for taxi control, Tower of A for take off, Radar control of A for departure procedure, several national and regional Air traffic control's enroute, then radar controller of B for arrival procedure, Tower of B for landing clearance and ground control of B for taxying to the ramp. How would any of these know when to unlock a cockpit door and in which stuation?

 

[Astronuc]

How about the control tower being able to unlock the cockpit door?

It would have to be secure satellite communication, and then cybersecurity would be a critical issue. Perhaps some kind of over-ride that would help guide a plane to a safe landing, or in this case, simply a mechanism to unlock the cabin and allow pilot or security to enter.Germanwings pilot ordered jet down to 100 feet, trackers say
http://news.yahoo.com/germanwings-pilot-ordered-jet-down-100-feet-trackers-172624949--finance.html

Germanwings crash: police search home of co-pilot who flew plane into mountain - rolling report
http://www.theguardian.com/world/li...e-co-pilot-who-crashed-his-plane-live-updates

 

[256bits]

Which control tower? An aircraft traveling from A to B makes contact with Ground control of A for taxi control, Tower of A for take off, Radar control of A for departure procedure, several national and regional Air traffic control's enroute, then radar controller of B for arrival procedure, Tower of B for landing clearance and ground control of B for taxying to the ramp. How would any of these know when to unlock a cockpit door and in which stuation?

Additionally, protocol delays would make it all moot. There would be the time delay from determination of a problem, positive identification of individuals who want entry with passcode verification and all sorts of security issues, authorization from responsible individuals on the ground, and then execution. Where is the extra electronics supposed to be located in the airplane so that communication can be established, and verification of that link? Who onboard has authority to access the electronics? Certainly it just could not be a "push this red button in case of emergency", right beside the food pantry.

 

[Doug Huffman]

How many have died in pilot suicide of the billions [/Carl Sagan voice] of passenger flights? Terror, thy name is ignorance.

 

[jim hardy]

"Between 09:30:52 and 09:30:55 you can see that the autopilot was manually changed from 38,000 feet to 100 feet and 9 seconds later the aircraft started to descend, probably with the 'open descent' autopilot setting," Fredrik Lindahl, chief executive of the Swedish tracking service said by email.

Hmmmmmm old troubleshooter says "How's that knob work? Is it capable of reporting motion when there was none?"

see my signature.