Germanwings 9525 Crash in French Alps

[davenn]

Solo suicide is a controversial debatable topic.

probably not a topic for this thread but would have been interested in your thoughts on that

Solo suicide is a controversial debatable topic. Taking 150 with you is not. It's just flat out mass murder and I hope he is tagged with it more than just the suicide part.

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used ?Dave

 

[Astronuc]

probably not a topic for this thread but would have been interested in your thoughts on that

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used ?

Dave

I believe the aircraft became the weapon of convenience, or the mountains, or both.

 

[russ_watters]

uh huh ... and how/when does it get classed as a terrorist act ? ... no ... because no weapons guns/bombs weren't used

Terrorism is ideologically motivated murder, for coercive purposes. And the chosen weapon is not a key part of what makes a (mass) murder terrorism.

 

[mheslep]

I don't know if it was aggressive or a passive act.

I suspect you do know. If I carelessly but intentionally ran you down because you happened into my path, racing my vehicle while you crossed the street, I think you would know well whether my action was depraved, or not.

 

[dlgoff]

I have a hard time hearing (from transcripts) this:

Bild says passengers can be heard screaming in the background as Sondenheimer shouts: “For God’s sake, open the door!” The captain is then heard trying to smash through the heavily reinforced door while shouting: “Open the damn door!”

http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-captain-yelled-at-lubitz-20150329-story.html

I don't know what tears me up most. Screaming passengers or the captains attempt to smash through the door.

 

[mheslep]

One day I’m going to do something that will change the whole system, and everyone will know my name and remember it.

Yes, right up there with the other pathetic, ego-maniacal mass murderers.

 

[MidgetDwarf]

However, we praise George Washington.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I don't know what tears me up most. Screaming passengers or the captains attempt to smash through the door.

Agreed. It's one thing to have several seconds of realization, but several minutes must have been unbearable. Please let me go quickly.

 

[magneticnorth]

One glaring fact remains , and it is one which will put Lufthansa in a position of high liability . Why was the physical exam left in the hands of a private physician , that physician having no compelling protocol to immediately advise Lufthansa , rather giving the patient a note which would most likely curtail or ruin his career ? Even a medical form to be completed by the physician and returned by Lubitz to his employer BEFORE being allowed to fly ?

 

[Astronuc]

Andreas Lubitz 'repeatedly urged Germanwings captain to leave him alone' before setting A320 on path to French Alps crash
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...20-on-path-to-french-alps-crash-10141732.html

The Germanwings co-pilot who is believed to have deliberately crashed his plane into the French Alps made repeated efforts to get the captain to leave him
alone in the cockpit, it emerged today.

Certainly a lot of evidence indicating a deliberate act.

 

[blue_leaf77]

Four lethal accidents during an international flight in only one year. That's quite something in the history of aviation. Not to mention some of the accidents' cause remain a mistery up to now. Given seemingly various different causes, it does leave me in doubt as to whether to keep trusting aerial transportations like I used to.

 

[russ_watters]

Four lethal accidents during an international flight in only one year. That's quite something in the history of aviation. Not to mention some of the accidents' cause remain a mistery up to now. Given seemingly various different causes, it does leave me in doubt as to whether to keep trusting aerial transportations like I used to.

That's just selection bias. Airline travel has been getting safer and safer over the past few decades and while I'm not certain what the overall stats for the past 2 years are, four is certainly not a very large number of crashes. You just think it is because of all the news coverage -- which is partially due to their uniqueness.

[edit] There's never been a year with fewer than six crashes and the one year with six was 2014:

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cause.htm

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/fatal%20accidents.jpg

Part of the newsworthiness comes from the fact that 3 of the four newsworthy crashes occurred under incredibly rare circumstances (the fourth may or may not have, but hasn't been explained yet). And by the way -- the first was just over a year ago.

 

[OmCheeto]

Here in the US, we have a set of rules, HIPAA, that prevent employers from getting the specific details of an employee's medical condition, without the permission from the employee.

Health Information Privacy
...
However, if your employer asks your health care provider directly for information about you, your provider cannot disclose the information in response without your authorization.
...

It appears that Germany has similar laws.

German Privacy Laws Let Pilot ‘Hide’ His Illness From Employers
...
That is because privacy protections in Germany are among the most stringent in the world. Under their provisions, an airline has to rely on the truthfulness of its pilots in learning about their medical histories, and it has no legal means of checking the information the pilots provide.
...

Having to deal with it directly, it struck me as both a good and bad thing.

[IMHO]
It's bad, because it's somewhat of an overly politically correct thing to do.
Some employers should have access to the fact that their employees may or may not be, in layman's terms, nuts.[/IMHO]

Another annoying thing, is that if you tell your employer that you think one of your fellow employees is nuts, they will usually, if not always, remind you that you are not a doctor, and therefore not qualified to make such a diagnosis.

Lastly, regarding a couple of earlier comments regarding the US Submarine force.
I don't recall any psychological fitness testing on any of the nuclear power plant personnel.
But I can state, that two of my fellow crew members were removed from the nuclear field due to aberrant behavior.
I don't know if they were released from service completely, but they were never allowed back on my ship after their "events".

 

[magneticnorth]

The doors to the cockpit are a good idea , they were not the problem . The absence of a third party a.k.a. Flight Engineer IS the problem .Get them back on board ,even if it's a glorified aero-mechanic in a uniform , or follow the U.S. practice of atleast bringing one of the flight crew in the cockpit when one of the two pilots is absent . People have fooled Psychologists with ease . So the third party in the cockpit is the most reasonable solution .People bent on suicide are usually successful , and I don't think it really matters to them whether they take anyone with them . It's all a matter of circumstance and opportunity . Given this circumstance is why I find it almost ludicrous that the reporting of mental illness and it's diagnosis would remain soley in the hands of the person diagnosed .

 

[OmCheeto]

The doors to the cockpit are a good idea , they were not the problem . The absence of a third party a.k.a. Flight Engineer IS the problem .Get them back on board ,even if it's a glorified aero-mechanic in a uniform , or follow the U.S. practice of atleast bringing one of the flight crew in the cockpit when one of the two pilots is absent . People have fooled Psychologists with ease . So the third party in the cockpit is the most reasonable solution .People bent on suicide are usually successful , and I don't think it really matters to them whether they take anyone with them . It's all a matter of circumstance and opportunity . Given this circumstance is why I find it almost ludicrous that the reporting of mental illness and it's diagnosis would remain soley in the hands of the person diagnosed .

All good ideas. The last paragraph in the article I posted above, kind of mirrors the opinion of your last sentence.

...
In the wake of Tuesday’s air disaster, however, Germany may have to reconsider the way it balances privacy against security, at least in allowing airlines the ability to screen their pilots more thoroughly. Even a week ago, data protection authorities in Germany would likely have objected to a request from Germanwings asking doctors to reveal the details of their pilots’ mental health, says Runte. “But if you ask the same question today, I think the answer could be different.”

Unfortunately, it takes a 9/11, or an event like this, to bring new, more reasonable rules into place.

 

[russ_watters]

Here in the US, we have a set of rules, HIPAA, that prevent employers from getting the specific details of an employee's medical condition, without the permission from the employee.

It appears that Germany has similar laws.

HIPAA does not apply in cases where the person is a danger to himself or others. The doctor in this case is going to have to answer questions about why he didn't contact the police instead of/in addition to giving the pilot a note. (Caveat on if their laws are different.)

Lastly, regarding a couple of earlier comments regarding the US Submarine force.
I don't recall any psychological fitness testing on any of the nuclear power plant personnel.

You wouldn't necessarily know all the details of the background check, however I remember specifically that the Navy aviation aptitude exam included a section of psychological questions. They seemed geared toward finding risk takers/adventurers who stopped short of stupid/crazy.

 

[magneticnorth]

Agreed OmCheeto , I was really expressing my surprise , given the legendary German efficiency of Lufthansa , I would have guessed that the procedures for such fit to fly overall examinations and subsequent verifications , would be more stringent than what actually was , and that rights to privacy would be superceded by quite literally national security and safety of passengers and aircraft ,especially when the result of said examinations was an "unfit to fly " . Add to that the knowledge on the part of Lufthansa that this pilot had a history of mental problems . And the more information that is coming out , the more obvious this becomes and my surprise is turning to shock.

 

[OmCheeto]

... Add to that the knowledge on the part of Lufthansa that this pilot had a history of mental problems . ...

There has been too much information released for me to read everything. I don't recall seeing anywhere that Lufthansa was aware of his mental instability. For all they knew, he took time off for sore feet.

Do you have a direct link to the assertion, that Lufthansa knew it was a "mental" problem?

 

[jim hardy]

Nuke plant where i worked we all took a psychological "profile" test.

Narcissists can be quite manipulative, though... Lubitz talked his pilot into leaving.

...................................

If as the tabloids say

he had two girlfriends , one of them pregnant,
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ubitz-girlfriend-was-expecting-his-child.html

and was popping pills, becoming erratic and controlling
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/andreas-lubitzs-girlfriend-kathrin-goldbach-5421750
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...tz-s-repeated-attempts-coax-pilot-toilet.html

i see a narcissist destroying his own self image, desperate for escape from his demons..

I hate to see him convicted in the press.

As Grandma says, it will all come out in the wash.

....................................

Industry learns from its mistakes. I think his psychologist should've alerted the carrier about this guy.

Does Germany have equivalent to our EAP , Employee Assistance Program?

One hopes the next few generations make as much progress on psychology front as last few generations did on technology front.

old jim

 

[blue_leaf77]

That's just selection bias. Airline travel has been getting safer and safer over the past few decades and while I'm not certain what the overall stats for the past 2 years are, four is certainly not a very large number of crashes. You just think it is because of all the news coverage -- which is partially due to their uniqueness.

I think I emphasized international flights.

the first was just over a year ago

If we both are referring to that missing Malaysia airlines, I believe it was a few days and a year ago.

 

[russ_watters]

I think I emphasized international flights.

What exactly do you mean by "international"? Do you mean non-American or just any flight going between two countries? If the former, the stats are what I gave (zero American crashes for several years) and if the latter, I don't know about the stats on that(and I suspect neither do you), but given how small Europe is, I'd think a large fraction of European flights go between countries. In either case, as safe as the 2014 was overall (by number of crashes) I'm not willing to blind-guess it was unsafe by a measure that doesn't seem very useful anyway.

If we both are referring to that missing Malaysia airlines, I believe it was a few days and a year ago.

Weeks, but either way it is bad practice to manipulate statistics to try to make them look worse than they really are. You're just scaring yourself for no reason.

 

[256bits]

HIPAA does not apply in cases where the person is a danger to himself or others. The doctor in this case is going to have to answer questions about why he didn't contact the police instead of/in addition to giving the pilot a note. (Caveat on if their laws are different.)
.

If the patient stated to the doctor that he felt he was to crash a plane, or stated that he wanted to hurt himself or another, or others, ( which I doubt happened due to the guy keeping everything secret ) then yes, the disclosure should have happened.
A doctor would be hesitant to presume a risk, and then be liable to sanctions by running afoul of patient-doctor confidentiality with a disclosure.
We will see by what the doctor's response is, if they ever do decide to give that information to the public

Other than a risk of imminent threat to on-self or others, ( other special cases apply such as gunshot, stab wounds, court order, executive order, child endangerment ) law enforcement, family, or other authorities do not have to be notified.

Perhaps the list may be expanded upon due to this tragic occurrence by the law-makers.

 

[magneticnorth]

You are quite right OmCheeto , I would have thought , in view of Lubitz' rather extensive history of mental problems , especially with determinations by physicians of psychosomatic sight deficiencies and psychologists categorizing him as suicidal , going back a number of years , I ASSumed that Lufthansa must have known something , and yes I know what that makes me - my bad . There is plenty of information as to what ailed Lubitz , but no , nothing indicating Lufthansa did in fact know . However I do think it a terrible policy ,in as far as German privacy laws, when applied to a Commercial Airline pilot . I guess I just find it hard to believe that when such a pilot is deemed unfit to fly [ and more than once ] someone should bear responsibility of getting that info to the employer . Having said that , and after removing my foot from my mouth , I do think that there will be lawsuits based on that particular issue of- who knew what and when did they know . Either way Lufthansa stands to be facing large lawsuits , if not for the suicide , then the murder causing the deaths of the passengers and crew .

 

[256bits]

It is interesting that the FAA is aware of the problem of pilots flying while depressed.
So they have changed a decades long policy.

This article sums up their change in policy.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/04/02/pilots.depression/index.html

Their basis for the change is

"The concern that we have today is we have people who are either self-medicating or not seeking a diagnosis. Either of those is unacceptable," Babbitt said. "This change ... will allow those people to get the treatment, allow us to monitor and return them to the cockpit [as] safer, better pilots."

The exam entails,

Commercial pilots under the age of 40 are required to undergo a medical exam by an FAA-certified physician every year; those over 40, every six months. But the examination focuses largely on the pilots' physical health, and there is no formal assessment of the pilots' http://www.cnn.com/topics/mental_health .

The problem they hope to solve is,

But the FAA concedes pilots aren't always forthcoming, especially if honesty could cost them their job.

"We know that there are people out there who are not taking antidepressants because they know they would be grounded if they are. We know there are people out there who are taking them and lying to us about that," said Dr. Fred Tilton, the FAA's federal air surgeon.

"We think it's safer to [make sure pilots are treated for depression] than to continue to drive it underground," he said.

Glaringly standing out are the terms lying, self-medication, grounded ( as in lose their pilots license and job ), underground.

 

[russ_watters]

Deeply offensive (not to mention, just plain wrong) Op-Ed from CNN on the crash:

Opinion: Let's be Honest about What this Was

Suicide has made the news again, even though we won't call it that. Andreas Lubitz deliberately crashed a plane into the Alps, taking his own life and the lives of 149 others.

Authorities have ruled out terrorism and other nefarious motivations for this horrible action. But for some reason, although suicide appears evident at this time, some are refusing to call it that.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/30/opinions/schmitz-suicide-germanwings/index.html

Ridiculous: a google for "germanwings suicide" yields 33 million hits. Everyone knows exactly what this was: a (mass) murder-suicide. Apparently, except for the author of the Op-Ed:

Aside from the setting and location, the suicide of Andreas Lubitz is not significantly different from the suicide bomber last week during rush hour in Kabul, Afghanistan, who killed seven people and injured an additional 36. Lubitz is also not significantly different from Adam Lanza, the Newton, Connecticut, shooter who killed his mother and 26 people, mostly children, at Sandy Hook Elementary School, before killing himself. While these tragedies were all very public, and extremely painful to larger communities, they were still suicides.

True, but earlier in the article:

...we must first be able to call it what it is: another tragic suicide with horrifying collateral damage.

"Collateral damage" is accidental deaths of bystanders. In murder-suicide, the murders are on purpose: the murderer is depressed because he's angry at other people and wants to "go out with a bang" by taking people with them. Someone who is merely suicidal wants to hurt only themselves. Someone who is angry wants to hurt other people. The difference could not be more plain. The examples roughly match this event, but none of them can accurately be described as "collateral damage".

Disturbing, offensive.

Interestingly, you'll find the most lucid comments I've ever seen in a news-comments section under the article: pretty universal condemnation of the article. One comment from someone who is on a suicide hotline mentions that the vast majority of suidical people express clearly that they only want their own pain to stop and choose methods of suicide purposely designed not to harm others.

Even linked from the article, here's Dr. Gupta's take: "Not depression alone". Right: Like Adam Lanza, the primary issue here will likely be found not to be depression, but psychosis. That's what turns people into mass murderers (not including terrorism, which is a wholly different animal). The depression/suicide is secondary to that. Again, the vast majority of depressed and suicidal people are not homicidal: there is no necessary link that makes a suicidal person a murderer (though it would appear the reverse link does exist for many mass-murderers).
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/0...id=ob_article_footer_expansion&iref=obnetwork

Caveat: We don't have all the details yet and I can envision a scenario where the/a pilot has a breakdown on a plane and "has to" crash it "now". But that does not appear to be the case here: there is evidence of premeditation. Also, in the example of the airline employee murder-suicide, the passengers were not primary targets or specifically chosen individuals, but they were still killed on purpose, to hurt the airline.

 

[jim hardy]

Someone who is merely suicidal wants to hurt only themselves. Someone who is angry wants to hurt other people.

...someone who is on a suicide hotline mentions that the vast majority of suidical people express clearly that they only want their own pain to stop and choose methods of suicide purposely designed not to harm others.

astute observation, Russ.

People can be filled with repressed rage and completely unaware of it. Causes all sorts of somatic symptoms.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0132835800/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[BobG]

It is interesting that the FAA is aware of the problem of pilots flying while depressed.
So they have changed a decades long policy.

This article sums up their change in policy.
http://www.cnn.com/2010/TRAVEL/04/02/pilots.depression/index.html

...Glaringly standing out are the terms lying, self-medication, grounded ( as in lose their pilots license and job ), underground.

FAA officials said that they do not know the extent of depression among pilots but that pilots are probably representative of the larger population, in which 10 percent are believed to suffer from depression.

Interesting dilemma. If airlines allow pilots suffering from depression to continue flying as long as they are on proper medication, they presumably reduce the risk of an already rare occurrence from happening. But they presumably increase the amount of money they can be sued for since they knowingly allowed a risky pilot to fly. And even barring a suicide-murder, just revealing that 10% of their pilots are being medicated for depression would probably seriously hurt their business.

Generally, I don't think employers are any more eager to hear about their employees problems than employees are to reveal them.

 

[jtbell]

Now it appears that Lubitz changed the settings on the autopilot while the plane was descending, to increase its speed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32173632

 

[Astronuc]

The flight data recorder shows that Lubitz was changing settings deliberately to crash the plane.

http://news.yahoo.com/female-officer-finds-germanwings-black-box-first-day-132414783.html

http://news.yahoo.com/black-box-sug...iberate-investigators-101421726--finance.html