Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead Getting Medical Help

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the tragic case of an 11-year-old girl who died after her parents opted for prayer over medical treatment for a treatable form of diabetes. Participants explore themes of parental responsibility, religious beliefs, and the implications of faith healing on child welfare.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Meta-discussion

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express sadness and shock over the girl's death, highlighting the disturbing nature of the situation.
  • Others argue that the parents acted based on their beliefs and knowledge, suggesting that banning certain religious practices would not be a viable solution.
  • Increased public health information is proposed as a potential remedy to prevent similar situations in the future.
  • Some participants criticize religion in general, linking it to harmful outcomes, while others defend the notion that the family's beliefs were not representative of organized religion.
  • A counter-argument is presented regarding the ethical boundaries individuals set for medical treatments, suggesting that personal beliefs influence decisions about healthcare.
  • Concerns are raised about distinguishing between legitimate religious practices and delusional behavior, questioning societal responsibilities in such cases.
  • Some participants note that similar cases of children dying due to lack of medical treatment for religious reasons have occurred elsewhere, indicating a broader issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; there are multiple competing views regarding the role of religion, parental responsibility, and the implications of faith healing on child welfare. The discussion remains unresolved with varied opinions on the matter.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference specific cases and legal implications surrounding faith healing and child welfare, indicating a complex interplay of ethics, law, and personal belief systems that remains unresolved.

  • #121
Gokul43201 said:
Just read another article on this - the father of the girl was an ex-cop!

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gy_FocuLcPyslOqVeaOFan8yo7eQD8VLUSO01



I just can't figure out the psyche of the father. Did he lose faith in his prayer, when his daughter stopped breathing? Did he have "unshakeable" confidence up until that moment? What caused him to switch loyalty from prayer to medical procedure? Or was he never really confident that his prayers would be answered?
That is so horrible, so sad. How can anyone refuse to do whatever is necessary for their child's welfare?

Surely they knew that their child's condition was easily treatable, but chose to ignore it.
 
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  • #122
Parents Pick Prayer Over Docs; Girl Dies

I just read this on livescience.com when a question popped into my head. Could the parents be held responsible for the childs death by refusing to take her to a doctor? Or better yet, should they?


WESTON, Wis. (AP) — Police are investigating an 11-year-old girl's death from an undiagnosed, treatable form of diabetes after her parents chose to pray for her rather than take her to a doctor.

An autopsy showed Madeline Neumann died Sunday of diabetic ketoacidosis, a condition that left too little insulin in her body, Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said.

She had probably been ill for about a month, suffering symptoms such as nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness, the chief said Wednesday, noting that he expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

The girl's mother, Leilani Neumann, said that she and her family believe in the Bible and that healing comes from God, but that they do not belong to an organized religion or faith, are not fanatics and have nothing against doctors.

http://www.livescience.com/health/08...yer-death.html
 
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  • #124
I haven't even read the other thread regarding this subject, and I don't know an awful lot about Yankee law... but I'm thinking that the least that they could be charged with is negligent homicide.
I'm not sure what the exact term is. It's what we call 'criminal negligence causing death'.
 
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  • #125
B. Elliott said:
I just read this on livescience.com when a question popped into my head. Could the parents be held responsible for the childs death by refusing to take her to a doctor? Or better yet, should they?
The other thread has already been linked, but in any case, the answer to the questioni is a firm: they will be. In the US, praying instead of taking a dying child to a doctor is murder.
 
  • #126
russ_watters said:
The other thread has already been linked, but in any case, the answer to the questioni is a firm: they will be. In the US, praying instead of taking a dying child to a doctor is murder.

Thanks for linking to this thread Russ... I completely looked over the original. The Times link you posted is reassuring because I was afraid with this being a religious issue, that any attorney wouldn't touch the case with a 10' pole. Following a religion is one thing, but if it involves throwing logic out the window along with putting someone elses life on the line, just because of ones belief... big no-no. A very big one.
 
  • #127
B. Elliott said:
Thanks for linking to this thread Russ... I completely looked over the original. The Times link you posted is reassuring because I was afraid with this being a religious issue, that any attorney wouldn't touch the case with a 10' pole. Following a religion is one thing, but if it involves throwing logic out the window along with putting someone elses life on the line, just because of ones belief... big no-no. A very big one.

I think the general attitude is that if you think prayer will help, by all means do it...on the way to the doctor, while seeing the doctor, after returning home from the doctor, etc. If your belief is that God decides who lives and dies, then you can give God the chance to work through your doctor, and if it's not meant to be, then nothing the doctor does will help. This allows one to practice their faith without endangering a child by refusing to seek medical attention.
 
  • #128
-.-' Problem's like that happen everyday, and never gain the full public view, and when they do, there is a bigger reason why it has...

This is a classic example how the lack of understanding of what a person desire's or wishes to be done onto one's self

Think of it this way... if that child was 23 years old had a car a nice house, a great job, then she became termaly ill, would she do the actions that her parents done? Or would she have made her own choice to fight to live... But at the age of 23 she would not be a child, and she would be able to think for her self and deside if going to the doctor is worth it for her, and her family(mainly the cost of money) But her father and mother made those choice's for her, which were made in the interests of the parent's and not the child, so therefore that's why the actions that they took is a crime... but they would lack the point of view of see'ing that from the action's they took... so to them it was fate by god, by the eye's of man and logic, would be act negligence. therefore by the point of view of the court system, they would be held acountable for there action's. Even if the child were to say that she wants to die or doesn't want to go to the doctor, those thoughts could or would be created by the comment's and information that there parents have told there child. (Mainly by saying that don't worry you don't need to go to the doctor "god" will heal you.) dang near brain washing...just forget the logical outcome of the illness that you have...God got's a magical band aid for you :D

But one thing that is true, money is also a key factor in effecting the judgment of the parent's in any illness...But if people want to lisson to there own voice in there head and say its some other one... i respect what they say, make or think is true...but they and everyone should respect that of which is other's people's point of view, mainly because they would like there own point of view respected.

So i would just use there own ways to show them that what they have choosen is not correct choice for your child or for you...

Do onto other's as you want done onto your self... Only work's if you don't lie to your self... So the mother would put her self in the child's spot, would she want someone els making all the choice's for her? the answer is no, would she want someone els effecting what she thinks is true and not true, and making here point of view no longer her's but brain washed into something els? Answer is also no... but yet she done such onto her own child... this is an example how people of the faith still do not understand what the true faith is all about... Sorry if it seem's the word brain washing is to harsh.. but the word was created in china, as a method of raisen there kid's to the parent's or government's point of view... so it seem's like it matche's the action that the parent's have done...
Lovely world...-.-'
 
  • #129
The interface between religion and psychosis

OBJECTIVE: This paper aims to explore the interface between religion and psychosis, and to comment on its relevance in clinical practice. METHOD: The context of religious psychotic phenomena is briefly discussed, leading to an examination of the biological substrates of religious experiences, the hypothesized process of religious psychotic symptom formation, and the clinical implications when assessing religious delusions. A PubMED search was conducted to identify original research and review articles of relevance to the discussion. RESULTS: Religion is an enduring theme in psychosis, the understanding of which can be assisted by distinguishing between religion as a culture and religiosity as pathology. There are strong arguments for the involvement of temporolimbic instability in the generation of religious psychotic symptoms. CONCLUSIONS: Psychosis can be conceptualized as the manifestation of aberrant perceptual and/or integrative processes. The prevalence of religion as a psychotic theme may be explained by its central cultural role, the implication of temporolimbic overactivity in the pathogenesis of some cases of psychosis, and the tendency to interpret intense or discrepant perceptual events as spiritual. In the clinical setting, the determination of religious delusions can be challenging at times. In addition to seeking advice on unfamiliar religions, a thorough assessment of the dimensions of religious beliefs and symptoms of neurocognitive dysfunction can be useful.

[See disclaimer below]

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  • #130
I would add a disclaimer that this would apply in the sense of someone already being prone to psychosis may focus on religion, something they may view as powerful, or forbidden, etc...

I would not say that a belief in religion necessarily leads to psychosis. Anyway, my company is here and I can't finish this thought.
 
  • #131
I'm going to add to that disclaimer to make it perfectly clear that religious psychosis is NOT the same as being religious. People who have certain mental illnesses can have unusual expressions of religiosity...this is not the same...not even close...to the way religions are practiced among normal people.

Within the context of this story, however, it is possible that the more extreme components of this couple's beliefs may indeed have arisen from a psychiatric break of some sort...in particular, their belief that they can pray to have their daughter resurrected. This is well outside the norm of religious beliefs and practices. Of course, this also could be a simple manifestation of their grief...denial that their daughter is really gone.
 
  • #132
Reviving an old story...

russ_watters said:
That isn't true. This is, unfortunately, not uncommon in the US and as is often the case, I expect these parents will be tried and convicted of neglegent homicide.

Danger said:
I haven't even read the other thread regarding this subject, and I don't know an awful lot about Yankee law... but I'm thinking that the least that they could be charged with is negligent homicide.
I'm not sure what the exact term is. It's what we call 'criminal negligence causing death'.

The parents were indeed charged and the trial has just begun.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/45214542.html
Neumann, 41, and her husband, Dale, have been charged with second-degree reckless homicide in the death of their daughter, Madeline Kara Neumann. Dale Neumann's trial is set for July.

The couple sought to heal the 11-year-old through prayer and ignored the pleas of friends and relatives who urged them to take Kara to a doctor as she became increasingly weak and eventually lapsed into a coma over Easter weekend last year.

She died about 3:30 p.m. on Easter Sunday, moments after a neighbor called 911.
...
...the prosecutor was forced to stop his opening statement when Leilani Neumann slumped and put her head into her arms on the defense table. Her husband and other supporters helped her from the courtroom.

She wobbled and appeared dazed.

Her attorney, Gene Linehan, told Circuit Judge Vincent Howard that she had a "total mental and emotional breakdown" and reported she had no feeling in her arms and legs.

"It's pretty clear to me at this point she can't participate in her defense," Linehan said.

Howard ordered an immediate medical evaluation, performed by an area ambulance crew.

Neumann apparently agreed to the limited medical help, then returned to the courtroom in a wheelchair.

Interesting that Neumann agreed to medical help and a wheelchair when it came to her own health.
 
  • #133
Maybe if they pray hard enough, they will be acquitted?
 
  • #134
Gokul43201 said:
Reviving an old story...
And another one making the news now...similar, but with the notable difference that the kid isn't dead yet:
MINNEAPOLIS - A Minnesota couple who refused chemotherapy for their 13-year-old son were ordered yesterday to have the boy reevaluated to see if he would still benefit from the cancer treatment - or if it might already be too late.
Brown County District Judge John Rodenberg found that Daniel Hauser had been "medically neglected" by his parents, Colleen and Anthony Hauser.
http://www.philly.com/inquirer/world_us/20090516_Judge__Minn__boy__13__must_see_cancer_doctor.html
 
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  • #135
I wonder what the minimum sentence would be if they are convicted.
Would it be enough incentive for them to abandon theirs beliefs?
 
  • #136
arunbg said:
I wonder what the minimum sentence would be if they are convicted.
Would it be enough incentive for them to abandon theirs beliefs?

I think it's not about making them abandon their beliefs .. but
1) just to prevent these kind of incidents from happening in the future
2) punish them for their negligence which resulted in homicide (but they have already punished enough for this assuming that they loved their child).

Perfect punishment would be making them volunteer (like spreading awareness .. etc) so that other people don't make same mistakes.
 
  • #137
arunbg said:
I wonder what the minimum sentence would be if they are convicted.
Would it be enough incentive for them to abandon theirs beliefs?

For some people, it could end up strengthening their beliefs. Also, consider this: To abandon their beliefs now would be to admit to themselves that they caused their child's death. Which do you think is easier: To live with the idea that their child died needlessly and by their hand, or to seek a deeper spiritual connection that justifies the death?

There is also the possibility that these events will be viewed as the fulfillment of some spiritual destiny.

Recall that according to Biblical teachings, Abraham was asked to sacrifice his child for God. An Angel stopped him just in time as he began to thrust the knife. This story is told as an example of Abraham's great faith.
 
  • #138
For some people, it could end up strengthening their beliefs. Also, consider this: To abandon their beliefs now would be to admit to themselves that they caused their child's death. Which do you think is easier: To live with the idea that their child died needlessly and by their hand, or to seek a deeper spiritual connection that justifies the death?
Exactly the point I am trying to make. Spending time in the slammer is not going to make them change their views. I don't even think it would deter like-minded individuals from doing the same. And as you say, if the incident only strengthens their belief, the only point in the punishment would be to keep them from influencing other people, and also maybe build awareness among sane folk to watch out for these kind of people.

I strongly believe they need some form of counseling too, preferably from someone from the church, who they would listen too.

Otherwise when their term gets over, what is going to prevent them from resuming where they left off with renewed enthusiasm? Maybe lead other people along the same path.
 
  • #139
this really P***es me off
I hate people who do things like this.
 
  • #140
Ivan Seeking said:
Also, consider this: To abandon their beliefs now would be to admit to themselves that they caused their child's death.
Well, if the mother is now admitting herself to medical tests and using a wheelchair (instead of a prayer), would that not indicate that she is already abandoning at least some of these beliefs?
 
  • #141
Gokul43201 said:
Well, if the mother is now admitting herself to medical tests and using a wheelchair (instead of a prayer), would that not indicate that she is already abandoning at least some of these beliefs?

I don't know. It depends on the specifics of their beliefs and the circumstances.

Tsu once had blood splashed in her eyes as the ER crew removed the clothing of a patient. While it was acceptable for the patient to receive emergency treatment of various sorts, it was against her religion to submit to an AIDS test. We were left hoping that she wasn't HIV positive.