Going From EMF to Faraday's Law to find E-field in my HW problem

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the relationship between electromotive force (EMF), Faraday's Law, and the electric field in the context of a toroidal coil problem from Griffiths' textbook on electrodynamics. Participants express confusion regarding the implications of a constant magnetic flux despite a time-varying current, and the equivalence of electric and magnetic fields in this scenario.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the derivation of the electric field from the magnetic field and question the validity of substituting EMF into Faraday's Law. There is a discussion about the implications of a constant magnetic flux in the presence of a changing current, and whether it is necessary to calculate magnetic flux explicitly.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants seeking clarification on the concepts presented in the textbook. Some have offered insights into the equations involved, while others are still grappling with the underlying principles and their applications in the problem at hand.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the problem involves specific constraints, such as the dimensions of the toroidal coil and the relationship between current and magnetic flux. There is also mention of a particular section in the textbook that may provide further clarity on the topic.

ChanceLiterature
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Homework Statement
Ok, so this out of Giffth's intro to Edynamics. Problem 7.19:
A toroidal coil has a rectangular cross section with inner radius a, outer radius a+w and height h. It has N tightly wound loops. dI/dt= k. Additionally, w, h << a. Find E above center of toroid at height z.
Relevant Equations
B inside toroid mu NI/ 2 /PI / s; s being from cylindrical.
B outside = 0
Ok, so I understand how to find dphi/dt that is integral of -d/dt(B "dot" da). In this case I find a Phi that is a constant in space in time which causes me confusion in next step.
Edit: dphi/dt is constant...

Grithff's then says E field same as a Mag field above center of circular current. He writes the B found from solving Biot-Savart for a ring with current I, and says that in this senecio I is equal to -1/mu dPhi/dt.

Firstly, how the heck am I supposed to know to make this substitution based on the textbook?Secondly, how does this make sense. How can I take a statement about EMF and faradays law that will gives me E dot dl of a closed loop and use that to find the E at any point in space. Especially, when the EMF is not a function of time or space!

I understand the idea that E field in this problem is equivalent to the B field in the prior problem. However, I can't explicitly understand how they are the same and I couldn't find any mathematical justification of there equivalence.

I would appreciate any help anyone can give me. This problem has frustrated me to no end. Therefore, I apologize for any moodiness while writing the problem.
 
Last edited:
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Problem:
1649203144806.png

Solution from solution manual:
1649203225824.png
 
ChanceLiterature said:
Homework Statement:: Ok, so this out of Giffth's intro to Edynamics. Problem 7.19:
A toroidal coil has a rectangular cross section with inner radius a, outer radius a+w and height h. It has N tightly wound loops. dI/dt= k. Additionally, w, h << a. Find E above center of toroid at height z.
Relevant Equations:: B inside toroid mu NI/ 2 /PI / s; s being from cylindrical.
B outside = 0

Ok, so I understand how to find dphi/dt that is integral of -d/dt(B "dot" da). In this case I find a Phi that is a constant in space in time which causes me confusion in next step.
The current ##I## is changing with time. How can the flux be constant?

ChanceLiterature said:
Grithff's then says E field same as a Mag field above center of circular current. He writes the B found from solving Biot-Savart for a ring with current I, and says that in this senecio I is equal to -1/mu dPhi/dt.

Firstly, how the heck am I supposed to know to make this substitution based on the textbook.

Secondly, how does this make sense. How can I take a statement about EMF and faradays law that will gives me E dot dl of a closed loop and use that to find the E at any point in space. Especially, when the EMF is not a function of time or space!

I understand the idea that E field in this problem is equivalent to the B field in the prior problem. However, I can't explicitly understand how they are the same and I couldn't find any mathematical justification of there equivalence.
He explains all of this pretty clearly at the beginning of that section 7.2.2 (in the fourth edition). If ##\mathbf{E}## is a purely induced field, it satisfies the same equations as a magnetostatic field with ##\mu_0 \mathbf{J}## replaced by the ##-\partial_t \mathbf{B}##.
 
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Apologizes, I meant to say dphi/dt is constant in time and space.
Ok, I will look over that section in more detail now.
 
vela said:
The current ##I## is changing with time. How can the flux be constant?He explains all of this pretty clearly at the beginning of that section 7.2.2 (in the fourth edition). If ##\mathbf{E}## is a purely induced field, it satisfies the same equations as a magnetostatic field with ##\mu_0 \mathbf{J}## replaced by the ##-\partial_t \mathbf{B}##.
Wow! I have no idea how I missed that! That raises a different question though. If we have EQ 7.18 from section 7.2.2, then why in the solutions does Griffiths find phi first when EQ 7.18 only requires partial of B. Do I need to find phi?
 
The ##\partial_t B## is like the current density ##J##, but the magnetic field due to the loop depends on the current ##I##, which is analogous to the magnetic flux ##\Phi_B##.
 
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Thank you!
 

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