Goodbye to Pontiac: The End of an Era for American Muscle Cars

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ivan Seeking
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SUMMARY

Pontiac has officially ceased operations, marking the end of an era for American muscle cars. The discussion highlights the nostalgia surrounding Pontiac vehicles, particularly the Firebird and GTO models, while also addressing the engineering intricacies of muscle cars, such as supercharging and nitrous oxide injection. Participants share personal experiences with muscle cars, emphasizing their performance capabilities and the modifications that enhance speed and traction. The conversation also touches on the comparison between classic muscle cars and modern performance vehicles like the Mitsubishi Evo and Subaru WRX.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of muscle car history and significance in American automotive culture
  • Familiarity with automotive performance modifications, including supercharging and nitrous oxide systems
  • Knowledge of engine mechanics, particularly regarding horsepower and torque
  • Awareness of modern performance vehicles and their specifications, such as the Mitsubishi Evo and Subaru WRX
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the engineering principles behind supercharging and nitrous oxide injection systems
  • Explore the performance specifications and modifications available for Pontiac muscle cars
  • Investigate the impact of tire width and pressure on traction in racing scenarios
  • Learn about the latest trends in muscle car restoration and customization
USEFUL FOR

Car enthusiasts, automotive engineers, and anyone interested in the history and performance of American muscle cars, particularly those with a focus on Pontiac models and performance modifications.

  • #31
mgb_phys said:
These are for drag races then, not circuits or just speeding?

the images of cars posted, yes. but even when they were stock they didn't handle very well. maybe with the right suspensions and larger wheels to accommodate better braking, they could road race, but they'd still be big and heavy and need lots of horsepower.
 
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  • #32
Cyrus said:
...hey look a REAL car!

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicles/mseries/m3coupe/2007/allfacts/design/_shared/img/aerodynamic.jpg

cyrus, i like your style.
2180647568_36e0be6ed1_o.jpg





straight lines and turns, this car does it all:

3065446383_21db4d72ea_b.jpg

zjcwva.jpg

Zr1... drooool!



this car is for show:
DSC_2606.jpg


and this car is for go:
1413434.jpg






another GT3 for good measure.

6gamqa9.jpg




:)
 
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  • #33
Moonbear said:
I always think of those as "granny" cars. :smile: My grandmother had a Duster, some light green color. When she totalled that car, I think it was a red Dodge Daytona she got after that.
Depends on whose granny, I guess. My grandfather bought my grandmother a brandly-new Buick Electra 225 to wean her off her speed-addiction. She had been driving a Buick Wildcat, and she was getting stopped over and over again. She never got tickets, because my grandfather ran a 24-hour towing service as well as his heavy-equipment mechanic business, and all the cops knew him and her, but the troopers were warning him that Angie was going to end up in a wreck, someday. The tickets never got written because my granny always got up as soon as the phone rang in the night, started coffee, and started making a whole loaf of sandwiches. Nobody knew who long they would be out on wrecker calls, and she was always equipped with food and thermoses of hot coffee to keep her husband and the cops going. My mother didn't want me riding with her, even in the bigger, heavier car. The 225 had an audible alarm when you exceeded a certain speed. My granny kept hers set at 80 because she "didn't like to listen to that thing go off" - top speed limits here even on the major roads never exceeded 60 mph. It took most people 30 minutes to get from Bingham to Skowhegan. One time when we were on a parts-run for my grandfather, we made it in just over 20 minutes. "Little old lady from Pasadina" indeed.
 
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  • #34
turbo-1 said:
She had been driving a Buick Wildcat, and she was getting stopped over and over again.

That was my Granny's car! The first time I drove it I could hardly believe it. This is GRANNY'S car?
 
  • #35
Ivan Seeking said:
That was my Granny's car! The first time I drove it I could hardly believe it. This is GRANNY'S car?
The early '60's Wildcats were real muscle-cars. They weren't real affordable or popular, but they were real tire-screechers. My grandfather loved that machine and didn't want to sell it off, but he didn't want to lose his wife in a wreck, so he bought her the 225 and tucked the Wildcat in a back storage space so that she'd have to run the "Deuce and a Quarter" instead. My father had his eyes on that Wildcat... it seems that I am descended from thrill-seekers and speed-demons and that may never change.
 
  • #36
Ivan Seeking said:
Technically that is a supercharger and a superdupercharger. :biggrin:

:smile: I really enjoyed the "superdupercharger".
 
  • #37
When I was a kid, the neighbor - a highly accomplished mechanic - had 1957 Corvette Roadster that he raced. Less the street tires, it was exactly like the one below.

corp_06110_01_z+1957_corvette+side.jpg

http://www.corvettefever.com/featuredvehicles/corp_06110_1957_corvette/photo_01.html

He never let me drive it. :cry: IIRC, he moved about the time I got my license.
 
  • #38
Ivan Seeking said:
When I was a kid, the neighbor - a highly accomplished mechanic - had 1957 Corvette Roadster that he raced. Less the street tires, it was exactly like the one below.

corp_06110_01_z+1957_corvette+side.jpg

http://www.corvettefever.com/featuredvehicles/corp_06110_1957_corvette/photo_01.html

He never let me drive it. :cry: IIRC, he moved about the time I got my license.

This car was made famous for being made of fiberglass. One person could pick up the entire frame of the car and lift it over his head.
 
  • #39
Ivan Seeking said:
When I was a kid, the neighbor - a highly accomplished mechanic - had 1957 Corvette Roadster that he raced. Less the street tires, it was exactly like the one below.

corp_06110_01_z+1957_corvette+side.jpg

http://www.corvettefever.com/featuredvehicles/corp_06110_1957_corvette/photo_01.html

He never let me drive it. :cry: IIRC, he moved about the time I got my license.

That's a beautiful machine. When I was about 12 years old, a beautiful young woman down the street from me (Mitsy) used to own one of these fine vehicles. I was checking it out one day when she came outside and she said, "You can sit in it if you'd like." OH YEAH! She got in the driver's side and I got in the passenger side and I could just imagine driving down the boulevard with her. She (and I don't mean the car) definitely awoke a "funny new feeling" within me, if you know what I mean. :biggrin:
 
  • #40
Gnosis said:
When I was about 12 years old, a beautiful young woman down the street from me (Mitsy) used to own one of these fine vehicles.
You know you are going to grow up to be an engineer when you are thinking, wow what beautiful curves - if only that women would get out of the way :biggrin:
 
  • #41
mgb_phys said:
You know you are going to grow up to be an engineer when you are thinking, wow what beautiful curves - if only that women would get out of the way :biggrin:

I was most definitely happier sitting IN the car NEXT to those wonderfully formed Mitsy curves. Roul, roul! :biggrin:
 
  • #42
Gnosis said:
I was most definitely happier sitting IN the car NEXT to those wonderfully formed Mitsy curves. Roul, roul! :biggrin:

You can't talk about muscle-cars without throwing in a bit of lust. :biggrin:

A few years ago I found some old photos that I had taken at the ~1974 Long Beach Grand Prix. I had far more photos of women in bikinis than I had photos of cars.
 
  • #43
Cyrus said:
http://www.carforums.net/reviews/makes/pictures/pontiac12.jpg
[/URL]

Funny, at first sight I thought it is a BMW.
 
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  • #44
Ivan Seeking said:
You can't talk about muscle-cars without throwing in a bit of lust. :biggrin:

A few years ago I found some old photos that I had taken at the ~1974 Long Beach Grand Prix. I had far more photos of women in bikinis than I had photos of cars.
I used to travel to Epping NH and another track in NB with my drag-racing buddy. the BIG weekends were Winston Cup races at Epping. Steve made it to the semi-finals one year when he was still tweaking his car, and then practically shut it down off the line and limped back to the pits. The crew from the Brut funny-car team had been rooting for him big-time and by the time I made it to the far end of the pit, they were tearing down his top-end to figure out what went wrong. It seems that an intake valve shattered and redistributed itself all through the intake manifold causing extensive damage. Steve was shattered, too. The Brut crew helped him get the disabled Duster onto his trailer, and while Steve was lashing the car down, I went through the pits and rounded up a couple of Winston girls. These were extremely top-heavy ladies in red tube tops and white hot-pants that were handing out free cigarettes and posing for pictures. I've got pictures of him being hugged by those hotties. Despite suffering a season-ending failure (he couldn't afford to have a spare engine at the time), he was grinning like a possum.
 
  • #45
turbo-1 said:
These were extremely top-heavy ladies in red tube tops and white hot-pants that were handing out free cigarettes and posing for pictures. I've got pictures of him being hugged by those hotties.

Yep, I also noticed in my pictures that most of the women knew they were being photographed - reminds me a bit of the Girls Gone Wild commercials, but not THAT bad. At least I did manage to photograph a few cars. I have one photo of the six-wheel ELF car broken down right in front of us.
 
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  • #46
Ivan Seeking said:
Yep, I also noticed in my pictures that most of the women knew they were being photographed - reminds me a bit of the Girls Gone Wild commercials, but not THAT bad. At least I did manage to photograph a few cars. I have one photo of the six-wheel ELF car broken down right in front of us.
Yep! They were there to be seen and photographed and they were playing it up in spades. I told them how Steve had worked so hard to come up through the ranks only to have an engine self-destruct at one of the most important races of his life. I told them that he would love it if they came over and posed with him and they jumped at it. It didn't hurt that I was draped with enough pro-level camera gear to make them think that I was a stringer for a drag-magazine, and they really played it up with the poses. It really didn't hurt that I had track access, either. When you are lying on your belly shooting under guardrails at the starting line, it signals that you have pro-level access and these ladies were quite attuned to that.
 
  • #47
When Pontiac Meant Muscle

Detroit was racing to put more powerful engines in its biggest cars when General Motors’ Pontiac division took a detour in 1964 and created a $296 option for its midsize Tempest. By adding a bigger V-8 engine to Aunt Martha’s economy car, Pontiac created the prototype of the all-American muscle car — the rocket-powered family sedan.

...The GTO’s birth can be traced to the musings of Bill Collins, a member of Pontiac’s advanced engineering group in the 1960s, at one of the informal Saturday morning get-togethers organized by John Z. DeLorean, Pontiac’s larger-than-life chief engineer. Mr. Collins pointed out that the husky V-8 from a Bonneville or Grand Prix would fit into the same space occupied by the Tempest’s tame engine. It was a head-slapping moment for engineers in search of performance.

Soon they were building a prototype. Mr. DeLorean’s team had to work covertly...
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/03/weekinreview/03mayersohn.html

Wow! I never knew that DeLorean played a key role in creating the GTO.
 
  • #48
mgb_phys said:
Is the point of these cars to look impressive or for street racing?
Wouldn't a Mitsubishi Evo / Subaru WRX with a 2.5L 350-400hp engine, AWD and sports suspension go faster for less money?

Or am I completely failing to get the point?

It wouldn't take very long to make a basic Honda Civic go faster than most muscle cars. The problem is that most muscle car riders are in denial.

If you want to go fast for cheap, it's best to buy small and slap a turbo on it.
 
  • #49
JasonRox said:
If you want to go fast for cheap, it's best to buy small and slap a turbo on it.

http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza-wrx/index.html?s_kwcid=subaru%20wrx|3184293295"

Woo-hoo!
 
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  • #50
My first car was a 68 Firbird 400. I loved that car...yet sold her to make a profit...and regret it to this day.

That might be why my father's 1971 1/2 TransAm (with the small bird on the nose - original decal package) with a 455 and working ram air is still parked in his garage. They only made about 1,200 of them...and it's a beast.

I received my first speeding ticket (skidding uphill) at 96 mph in 1978 in that car. Even though I pulled over and waited for the highway patrol to catch up, the judge suspended my license for 3 months...those were the days.

The car has an automatic transmission, which not everyone likes. But, when the ram air is used, at full throttle the car shifts out of 1st gear around 95 mph and seems to lunge forward. It doesn't shift out of 2nd until about 138 mph. I'll never know the top end limit (and neither will my son who will never know any of this).

The suspension was designed to accommodate the power. I've never driven anything (including a Porsche 928) that compares.
 
  • #51
lisab said:
http://www.subaru.com/vehicles/impreza-wrx/index.html?s_kwcid=subaru%20wrx|3184293295"

Woo-hoo!

What happened?! What do you mean... used to!?
 
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  • #52
WhoWee said:
My first car was a 68 Firbird 400. I loved that car...yet sold her to make a profit...and regret it to this day.

That might be why my father's 1971 1/2 TransAm (with the small bird on the nose - original decal package) with a 455 and working ram air is still parked in his garage. They only made about 1,200 of them...and it's a beast.

I received my first speeding ticket (skidding uphill) at 96 mph in 1978 in that car. Even though I pulled over and waited for the highway patrol to catch up, the judge suspended my license for 3 months...those were the days.

The car has an automatic transmission, which not everyone likes. But, when the ram air is used, at full throttle the car shifts out of 1st gear around 95 mph and seems to lunge forward. It doesn't shift out of 2nd until about 138 mph. I'll never know the top end limit (and neither will my son who will never know any of this).

The suspension was designed to accommodate the power. I've never driven anything (including a Porsche 928) that compares.

I don't think I'd want an automatic sports car, especially nowadays. Whenever I see a automatic corvette or something like that, I think... "what a waste"
 
  • #53
JasonRox said:
I don't think I'd want an automatic sports car, especially nowadays. Whenever I see a automatic corvette or something like that, I think... "what a waste"
If you have ever launched from dead-start in an automatic posi-trac Firebird of that era you'd be pretty impressed. I never had the $$$ to burn up tires that way, but I didn't mind going along for the ride when I was young, dumb, and (well, you know).
 
  • #54
turbo-1 said:
If you have ever launched from dead-start in an automatic posi-trac Firebird of that era you'd be pretty impressed. I never had the $$$ to burn up tires that way, but I didn't mind going along for the ride when I was young, dumb, and (well, you know).

Oh, with older cars I'm sure it was fine, but like I said, nowadays I would think that's dumb.

You can better use your power through a standard. I'm sure the standard Sunfire I'm driving now can beat most automatic vehicles on the road simply because I can redline it, and stay in the top end of the RPM range. Automatic transmissions can do that, but it takes a second or two for the computer to realize you are slamming the pedal and what to push the RPM range higher. Those 2 seconds are precious when it comes to acceleration.
 
  • #55
  • #56
For the last 20 years, pontiac has one ugly hunk of junk after another. I am glad they are gone, and its long overdue. I hope a few others go down with them, like buick.

Let other smaller companies with better products fill the gap that will be left behind when these giant companies selling junk go bye bye.

Hello new American Car companies. (These are cars that make me proud as an American!)

http://www.teslamotors.com/
 
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  • #57
JasonRox said:
What happened?! What do you mean... used to!?

Oh, I loved my WRX. I second-guess myself all the time about switching to a more commuter-friendly car. It was a standard transmission (as all fast cars should be!) and it was a real pain in stop-and-go traffic. But get it on a nice, curvy road and WOW :!)!
 
  • #59
Cyrus said:
For the last 20 years, pontiac has one ugly hunk of junk after another. I am glad they are gone, and its long overdue. I hope a few others go down with them, like buick.

Let other smaller companies with better products fill the gap that will be left behind when these giant companies selling junk go bye bye.

Hello new American Car companies. (These are cars that make me proud as an American!)

http://www.teslamotors.com/

I agree that GM sucks, but you can't compare affordable cars with sports cars. Seriously.
 
  • #60
JasonRox said:
I agree that GM sucks, but you can't compare affordable cars with sports cars. Seriously.

The four door car in the background is a family car. Also, pontia sells sports cars, so yes I can compare them. Seriously.
 

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