Guilty About Not Allowing Others to Smoke?

[TheStatutoryApe]

AHHH! sheesh... i quit... obviously I'm not articulate enough today to get my point across...

you're sooo far off from what i was saying though.

Gale I'm sure you're not trying to be a jerk to these people or anything and that you have their best interest in mind. Really though a person should be allowed to smoke and be comfortable doing so. Obvioulsy you shouldn't put yourself out to make them feel comfortable but to actively make someone feel uncomfortable regardless of whether or not they are doing so towards you isn't very nice.
I'm sure that we smokers on here do apreciate your concern for us. Thank you.

 

[Gale]

Gale I'm sure you're not trying to be a jerk to these people or anything and that you have their best interest in mind. Really though a person should be allowed to smoke and be comfortable doing so. Obvioulsy you shouldn't put yourself out to make them feel comfortable but to actively make someone feel uncomfortable regardless of whether or not they are doing so towards you isn't very nice.
I'm sure that we smokers on here do apreciate your concern for us. Thank you.

i'm just going to say i agree... cause i basically do... and like i said before, I'm not articulate enough today to make that apparents it seems...

i don't think i actively make anyone feel uncomfortable... ever... well... unless its playful and funny... but that's different...

 

[Danger]

unless its playful and funny... but that's different...

It's not, really, although I'm sure that you wouldn't do it on purpose. A joke isn't the least bit funny if it comes close to what other people say for real. It would be like teasing someone with a stutter because you don't mean any offense by it.

 

[Gale]

It's not, really, although I'm sure that you wouldn't do it on purpose. A joke isn't the least bit funny if it comes close to what other people say for real. It would be like teasing someone with a stutter because you don't mean any offense by it.

AUGH! that's the last freaking aside I'm going to make... specifically i was thinking about my recent obsession with LeBrad... a completely separate issue... but i should've known that no matter what i meant it'd be misconstrued!

...bah, I've just tried writing out various explanations... but i know its not going to matter... i should've just said nothing before... UGH...

 

[Evo]

Smokers are just mean people Gale, don't let them bother you.

(wonders how many smokers are going to take that seriously and get mean)

 

[Huckleberry]

Smokers are just mean people Gale, don't let them bother you.

(wonders how many smokers are going to take that seriously and get mean)

No, that's about right. Smokers are meanies

Is today everybody pick on Gale day? Let's see, what else can I add? A good thing about smoking is that it will really piss off your parents.
not worth the trade in the long run I think

 

[Danger]

...bah, I've just tried writing out various explanations... but i know its not going to matter... i should've just said nothing before... UGH...

Well now, you just did explain it. The assumption was that you were jokingly pestering people about smoking, which isn't funny. Stalking Brad is.

 

[Moonbear]

Is today everybody pick on Gale day?

It's kind of looking like that. Give Gale a week and we'll make sure the smokers have just had a cigarette, and then you'll all be able to talk like rational people again.

I think all Gale is really saying is she's not feeling sorry for the smokers if nobody is rolling out the red carpet inviting them to smoke. I suspect she's also under the misimpression that if smokers have to stand in the freezing cold for a cigarette, that might give them incentive to quit. That tends to underestimate the nature of addiction. It is because they are so addicted that they will even go stand out in the freezing cold to get that nicotine fix. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say they're tired of having to go stand out in the cold to smoke so they're going to quit. In my experience, people choose to quit either for health reasons or social reasons...often centered specifically around people they love. Sending them out in the cold doesn't make them quit, but telling them you love them and want them to be healthy because you'd really miss them if they died young might help them along the way. (Yeah, that goes for all you smokers here too! We really would like you to stick around and to be healthy.)

 

[Gale]

Smokers are just mean people Gale, don't let them bother you.

(wonders how many smokers are going to take that seriously and get mean)

am i allowed to laugh? or is that too insensitive of me?

Is today everybody pick on Gale day?

you know... i always wanted my own holiday... somehow its not as awesome as i was expecting...

Well now, you just did explain it. The assumption was that you were jokingly pestering people about smoking, which isn't funny. Stalking Brad is.

i meant i was going to explain the initial "uncomfortable" thing... i still stand by what i said, but not what everyone thought i said... and I'm not going to explain what i meant, cause ya...

But i guess your assumption was a bit off eh?

at any rate, Brad's such a hottie... i don't think i could've chosen a better candidate to stalk! god... that smile!

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Sorry Gale.
I just know that there are a lot of people who want to practically make smoking illegal. There have been more than one city that have tried passing laws to make it illegal to smoke in their city. They keep hiking taxes on tobacco. I got the impression that you might be someone who would agree with all these because you think we should quit.
Sorry for the mix up. I don't mean to pick on you at all.

 

[Gale]

Sorry Gale.
I just know that there are a lot of people who want to practically make smoking illegal. There have been more than one city that have tried passing laws to make it illegal to smoke in their city. They keep hiking taxes on tobacco. I got the impression that you might be someone who would agree with all these because you think we should quit.
Sorry for the mix up. I don't mean to pick on you at all.

I live... thank god for chocolate...

at any rate, i understand where you're coming from. it'd suck to get hooked on something, and then suddenly have society start trying to make it illegal... i guess i do agree with anti-tobacco sentiments, but eh... its a tricky issue...

on a slighty separate note... where do the taxes collected off tobacco go to?thats probably a ton of money...
also another question, if smoking were outlawed in some places, or even if the government just keeps upping the costs... what happens to tobacco companies? i mean, not that i really sympathize for them, but it must be running them out of business eh?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I think that as long as there are people who want to smoke the tobacco companies will be ok, unless ofcourse the government goes nuts with anti-smoking legislation. Appearantly there is a new bill coming up that is atempting to make purchasing tobacco products over the internet illegal.
The numbers I found for people quitting due to price hikes are approximately 4% of adults for every 10% increase in cost. The main thrust for this is that it impacts the number of kids that smoke even more strongly.
Where the money goes? That is up to the people who receive it. They generally say that it goes to kids and education, and that may be true for the majority of it but not all of it. The campeign against a bill that would have reduced the CA tobacco tax didn't even state what the bill was for it just said that it would be taking money away from our children. I was a bit disgusted by that personally.

 

[Moonbear]

On the anti-smoking side, I'm all for preventing people from starting in the first place, though I don't know how to do that when I can't understand why anyone did start in the first place. But once you're addicted, it's too late and you can't just cut off everyone addicted all at once (can you just imagine the riots?! ).

 

[honestrosewater]

Smoking in the car was the hardest thing for me to give up. I didn't think I could drive without smoking, my car smelled so bad.
Anyways, shortly after I quit I sold it and bought a new car..a virgin to smoke! No one smokes in my car... or in my house.
I smoked for over 30 years, and it was a simple chest x-ray,looking at two blacked sacks, where pink tissue use to live, that made me want to quit.
Its a been while now, but I still get cravings everyday.

Congrats! Does thinking of the X-rays help to fight the cravings?

 

[honestrosewater]

I started in middle school. I tried it out of curiosity and thought it was horrible. But I guess I kept smoking because several things made it cool. I did lots of stupid things in middle school.

About making it illegal, what would be the argument? Make it illegal on moral grounds- because people shouldn't do things that are unhealthy. To be fair, you'd have to outlaw alcohol, driving, not following a certain diet, and about a gazillion other things. What other reason? Raising health costs? That's weak, but to be fair, you'd have to outlaw giving birth to children with medical problems and everything else on the other list. More importantly IMO, it's a matter of letting people do what they want to with their own friggin body. You can smoke without infringing on other's rights. So either outlaw smoking or be fair and let people make their own decisions. Did I miss something? Is there a better argument?

 

[BobG]

How can you make your poor mother stand out there, shivering in the freezing cold?!

Actually, that would be a hard decision. The problem is the smoke doesn't really go away after she's done smoking. The smell gets absorbed into the interior of the car. I wouldn't be hard for me to tell someone not to smoke in my car.

I can understand why you'd feel guilty, though. It would be a little harder to watch my poor mom standing out there shivering. I'd probably cave.

Worse yet, I'd probably suggest we turn the heat up full blast and drive with the windows down to air out the car afterward and then she'd just think I was crazy instead of compassionate.

 

[brewnog]

So either outlaw smoking or be fair and let people make their own decisions. Did I miss something? Is there a better argument?

Have you heard of passive smoking?

 

[honestrosewater]

Have you heard of passive smoking?

You mean second-hand smoke- from being around someone when smoking? Sure, but it's easy to prevent. No?

 

[brewnog]

You mean second-hand smoke- from being around someone when smoking? Sure, but it's easy to prevent. No?

Not always, no. I know loads of kids who have suffered 18 years of second-hand smoke as a result of their inconsiderate parents. Babies and youngsters don't have the choice of whether or not they're in a smoky environment. Until recently, the lack of smoking bans on public transport and in public buildings was more than a nuisance, and actually a health risk.

It shouldn't be up to non-smokers to protect themselves from other peoples' fumes; it should be the responsibility of smokers not to inflict their habit on others. I find many smokers to be too arrogant to stand outside a bus-shelter, or to stub out when they walk through a shopping centre, for example.

If I drink beer, the effects on my health bear no relation to someone sitting next to me. You can't compare alcohol to smoking in this way.

 

[honestrosewater]

Eh, when I said "easy", I was thinking theoretically. So practically, "easy" is the wrong word. But I still think it can be done.

Not always, no. I know loads of kids who have suffered 18 years of second-hand smoke as a result of their inconsiderate parents. Babies and youngsters don't have the choice of whether or not they're in a smoky environment. Until recently, the lack of smoking bans on public transport and in public buildings was more than a nuisance, and actually a health risk.

Okay, but this can be and is being fixed.

It shouldn't be up to non-smokers to protect themselves from other peoples' fumes; it should be the responsibility of smokers not to inflict their habit on others. I find many smokers to be too arrogant to stand outside a bus-shelter, or to stub out when they walk through a shopping centre, for example.

Well, agreed. I don't think people should inflict harm on each other.

If I drink beer, the effects on my health bear no relation to someone sitting next to me. You can't compare alcohol to smoking in this way.

I was comparing them on the grounds of the health risks to the user, not to others.
No, beer doesn't affect others in exactly the same way as smoking. But I don't see how this matters, and I don't want to get sidetracked.
Why can harmful concentrations of second-hand smoke not be avoided? I don't know what concentrations are harmful, but standing outside on my porch, the smoke seems to be diluted (or dilute?) quickly. Is being outside not enough?

 

[Moonbear]

Why can harmful concentrations of second-hand smoke not be avoided? I don't know what concentrations are harmful, but standing outside on my porch, the smoke seems to be diluted (or dilute?) quickly. Is being outside not enough?

Considering exposure to smoke has a cumulative effect, it would be hard to say if there is a "safe" concentration. I don't think smokers realize just how far their smoke travels when dissipated enough to not be a visible cloud. If I'm sitting at a traffic light, and the person in the car in front of me lights up and we both have our windows open, I can smell it pretty strongly even though there's no visible smoke. The same thing with living in apartments. When I lived in apartments and have had neighbors who smoked in apartments adjacent to mine, that smoke odor permeated into my apartment as well; it's actually a big reason why I don't like living in apartments or condos, because having the neighbors' smoke invading my "home" is just plain disgusting to me. Is it just an unpleasant odor at that distance or am I still being exposed to the harmful effects of that second-hand smoke, I really don't know. Someone who has just come inside from smoking a cigarette still has a strong enough odor on their clothing to be irritating, not just unpleasant, but to actually feel like my nasal passages are burning and sometimes to even make me cough...along the lines of when the custodian uses the strong cleaning supplies in the restroom that make my eyes water too, or when someone is practically bathed in perfume (I wish I wasn't exposed to those chemicals either).

I honestly have no idea if that's just an irritating smokey odor at that point or if there is still something harmful to my lungs in whatever is still emanating from the smoker's clothing to cause the odor. I think that would be good to know when determining what is and isn't an acceptable location for smoking or distance to keep from nonsmokers if you're going to light up a cigarette.

What really bothers me is watching people at the hospital coming out the door with their newborn baby, and as they are strapping it into the carseat, they're already lighting up a cigarette.

 

[brewnog]

I don't know what concentrations are harmful, but standing outside on my porch, the smoke seems to be diluted (or dilute?) quickly. Is being outside not enough?

Well yes, as far as I'm concerned I'm happy for smokers to stand outside in the fresh air, where the smoke is dissipated. As long as they're only inflicting the damage on themselves, I really don't mind people smoking (although I strongly support my friends who are trying to give up). It's just the inconsiderate ones which get on my goat, I suppose I'd wrongly put you in this category, sorry.

It is annoying, however, to walk out of a public building to be bathed in the smoke from 20 people standing right by the entrance, but I see this as more of an annoyance (in the same category as dog-owners who don't pick up turds, and loud drunkards) than a health risk; I'm sure I get more of a carcinogen dose from a few barbeques than I do from walking out of a building.

 

[Zantra]

First I want to say that I'm a smoker- have been for a long enough time. Also, I agree that no one under 18 should be smoking period. However when a person is 18 they have a right to smoke. Is is bad for you? No argument there. Should you expose non smokers to your bad habit? No. With that said however, it's tiring to have people attempt to force their views upon you. I know a lot of people drink, but if I came around the bar every day preaching about the evils of alcohol, I wouldn't be too popular. People who smoke know it's bad for them- we're all in agreement on the effects of smoking. We all know it's bad for you. With that said, if someone still chooses to smoke, nothing you say will change their viewpoint. You aren't imparting any newfound wisdom upon them. Your conversation won't lead to an ephinany whereupon they suddenly realize they've made a huge mistake and throw away their lighter. I know a lot of times it's a loved one and people have best interests at heart. However you can't help the person until they want to help themselves. I smoke outside because I'm not allowed to smoke in the house. granted I'm in california, but growing up in the midwest I'm very familiar with shivering in -0 weather to take a few hits. We are willing to suffer.

That being said, I make my own mother smoke outside. The only exception I ever made was for my grandmother. You have every right to not have them smoke in your car. If they really need a smoke, I'd be willing to stop somewhere. People who've never smoked perhaps don't realize the degree that the physical cravings can effect a regular smoker. I can not so lightly, liken the cravings to PMS. They are strong. And unless you've ever smoked, you wouldn't understand this. So if someone NEEDS to smoke, no you don't have to comprimise your environment, but acceptance (especially of older people you KNOW will never quit) is recommended. I actually find it amusing that there is more and more effort going into making it uncomfortable for people to smoke. This is good for new smokers- it may work. But long time smokers- well for some I'm not sure anything short of death would work.

 

[honestrosewater]

A quick search turns up studies on SHS from living with a smoker. But I will keep checking.
I understand your concerns and it helps to hear them- I wouldn't think of some of these situations. I found an article that says smoke gets circulated around some apartments by ventilation systems with inadequate filtration. Is this what you meant? Or was it coming in from outdoors?

 

[Zantra]

bah, i have a lot of sympathy for smokers, i know so many, i understand that its difficult to quit, and i am very supportive. I'm speaking very generally. smoking just shouldn't be a comfortable thing to do. and its good that it isn't. if we luxury accomodations for smokers, that would be bad. i mean uncomfortable quite literally... as in simply not comfortable.

Abbey, I just wanted to point out to you that smoking isn't affected by comfort. Cigarettes don't taste all that great to even the most hardened smokers. And making them uncomfortable or not wouldn't affect the majority of smokers. It's more like "we're going to smoke either way, but if you're willing to give a break, we won't mind". It might persuade some casual smokers to quit, but the only way to stop altogether would be to basically kill the tobbaco industry.

 

[arildno]

Cigarettes don't taste all that great to even the most hardened smokers.

Oh, really?
I've smoked 20+ a day for approx 15 years; the wake-up cigarette is still great..

 

[Zantra]

On the anti-smoking side, I'm all for preventing people from starting in the first place, though I don't know how to do that when I can't understand why anyone did start in the first place. But once you're addicted, it's too late and you can't just cut off everyone addicted all at once (can you just imagine the riots?! ).

As far as trying it- you are seriously telling me you've never felt peer pressure in your entire life? Everyone has about something or another. That's how a lot of people got started. Social acceptance. However getting hooked is another issue.

 

[Zantra]

Oh, really?
I've smoked 20+ a day for approx 15 years; the wake-up cigarette is still great..

feels great, but how's the taste? bit acidic? I think it's totally pavlovian.. we associate the feeling with the taste- like beer

 

[Moonbear]

I actually find it amusing that there is more and more effort going into making it uncomfortable for people to smoke. This is good for new smokers- it may work. But long time smokers- well for some I'm not sure anything short of death would work.

I think it does more to prevent people from starting to smoke. Trying a cigarette doesn't seem so appealing if you see that those who have the habit are standing outside, alone, in the bitter cold, shivering while being pelted by rain. What, as a nonsmoker who really doesn't fully understand the motivation to try smoking, seems like it attracts people to try cigarettes (and then get hooked) was the social acceptance...it was the "cool" thing to do when everyone at the party was sitting around smoking while having a good time.

As for those who already are addicted, the cravings and the feeling of needing to continue doing it despite the adverse effects on health, comfort and social status are part of what define addiction, in addition to the physical dependence where you feel ill if you stop suddenly. Once someone is addicted, we could tell them we're going to make them move to Siberia and stand outside without a jacket to smoke and they'd still keep smoking. Discomfort, pain, even threat of death are no longer as important as getting that nicotine hit.

I wonder, how many people really would start smoking at or over 18 if we effectively prevented children from starting up smoking?

 

[Moonbear]

A quick search turns up studies on SHS from living with a smoker. But I will keep checking.
I understand your concerns and it helps to hear them- I wouldn't think of some of these situations. I found an article that says smoke gets circulated around some apartments by ventilation systems with inadequate filtration. Is this what you meant? Or was it coming in from outdoors?

These were apartments with independent ventillation systems (each unit had its own furnace and air conditioning units). Some comes from outdoors, but that I was less concerned with because I just closed the window. I mean it seeps through any small crevices between walls and floors, under doors, through common hallways. You can't seal up a building and make it airtight. It was less of a problem in apartments that had private entrances into a courtyard (until the smokers sat on the patio and the odor came through closed doors that weren't airtight), but in buildings where the doors all enter a common hallway or stairwell, that's where more came wafting in (I didn't stay in those apartments long, but the "garden" apartments with private entrances are more expensive to rent, so it's not always a choice someone has). In a large enough complex, I'm sure it could be addressed by setting aside nonsmoking buildings, but I've never seen a place where this is done, and would that be considered discrimination if smokers and nonsmokers were sequestered to different buildings? What if a smoker came along and only apartments in the nonsmoking building were available? Could they be denied rental because they are a smoker? I know I actively chose not to rent a number of apartments because I walked in and could tell the previous renter(s) were smokers, so chose not to live there. It's not an easy issue to address. On party winds up uncomfortable for the sake of the other, pretty much no matter how you address it.